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Widows Sons

Brother_Steve

Premium Member
Here is the feeling everyone seems to be dancing around.

Loyalty.

Every lodge has it's individual cliques.

However

Do you feel that a masonic riding club takes the clique environment one step further than it should and pits one mason against another?

Do you feel the bond to the riding organization is greater than that of the bond to the fraternity?

The colors of a jacket do not outweigh the apron or should we all go back to our EA degree and re-read the apron presentation.

If your colors mean that much to you then I think you need to rethink your obligations and involvement in the Craft.

It is unnerving to hear that some within the riding community lose their compass as a Mason and have thoughts of malice towards their Brothers because somehow being in the RC makes them a better man than those who are not.
 

Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
Just a clarification: my denial issued on the basis of the national organization's behavior, not individual members. A review of the national organization's most recent newsletter indicates they continue to use the particular emblem and continue to have organizational difficulties.
 

Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
Here is the feeling everyone seems to be dancing around.

Loyalty.

Every lodge has it's individual cliques.

However

Do you feel that a masonic riding club takes the clique environment one step further than it should and pits one mason against another?

Do you feel the bond to the riding organization is greater than that of the bond to the fraternity?

The colors of a jacket do not outweigh the apron or should we all go back to our EA degree and re-read the apron presentation.

If your colors mean that much to you then I think you need to rethink your obligations and involvement in the Craft.

It is unnerving to hear that some within the riding community lose their compass as a Mason and have thoughts of malice towards their Brothers because somehow being in the RC makes them a better man than those who are not.

Don't know where that came from. Which posts are you referring to? You are the first person I recollect to accuse me of dancing around issues.
 

Brother_Steve

Premium Member
Don't know where that came from. Which posts are you referring to? You are the first person I recollect to accuse me of dancing around issues.
I did not quote you nor anyone else in the thread. I am not accusing you specifically. I chose carefully the way and manner I worded my reply to try to shed some light on the subject by coming at it from another angle as to why Riding Clubs might make some uncomfortable within masonry. Now that I reread my reply it seems a little ... posh... :(

My reply comes from the general feeling I get when I read this discussion.

No offense meant, Brother.
 

Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
I did not quote you nor anyone else in the thread. I am not accusing you specifically. I chose carefully the way and manner I worded my reply to try to shed some light on the subject by coming at it from another angle as to why Riding Clubs might make some uncomfortable within masonry. Now that I reread my reply it seems a little ... posh... :(

My reply comes from the general feeling I get when I read this discussion.

No offense meant, Brother.

Well, you were accusing someone of dancing around the issue. The comment to me is out of left field, noting you didn't quote anyone to explain where your general feeling came from.
Which post have you the feeling there was malice? Which post have you the feeling someone was uncomfortable with riding clubs?
 

jvarnell

Premium Member
As noted previouMorganhe organization maintained a public website with a "MILF" section. I think it fair to say that reflects adversely on the organization and masonry has a whole. The emblem then widely used and still used by some chapters was viewed as inappropriate. That was the reasoning in Utah. It had nothing to do with vests or just patches. I note that I ride and wear patches.
So you think we all should be tared and feathered by the capton morgin affair even though we were not there? Or should we be judged as individuals and what we do our selfs.
 

Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
So you think we all should be tared and feathered by the capton morgin affair even though we were not there? Or should we be judged as individuals and what we do our selfs.
Not the issue. The fraternity as a whole is judged by the public. Some of us have the duty to protect the fraternity's reputation. Many of us take duties seriously. When we perceive an organization can harm the reputation of the fraternity, we have the duty to act. So far, no one has disputed that a MILF section in a web site is inappropriate.
 

jvarnell

Premium Member
Not the issue. The fraternity as a whole is judged by the public. Some of us have the duty to protect the fraternity's reputation. Many of us take duties seriously. When we perceive an organization can harm the reputation of the fraternity, we have the duty to act. So far, no one has disputed that a MILF section in a web site is inappropriate.
You are right the MILF section is not right but do think the public uses your judgment or the judgment I have that Freemasonry is for all men of all type. I have to play dress up and ware close that are appropriate for business everyday so someone can judge me as a good person. As a Director in a multi billion dollar business I do that it pays the bills. But I always know who is good or bad because of their actions and knowledge not their suit. This is why it is the internal and not the external mason are to look at. If I see someone come in for a job wearing blue jeans but they can impress me with wisdom, knowledge and wit I will hire them over a person wearing a suit but doesn't have the spark I look for. I also tell them they must also play the business dress up game when I know they are like me a blue jean black leather wearing biker at hart like me. As Freemasons we are not trying to limit people that join to one canadate like for a job, but except all that want light.

So by judging groups because of the content of a web site and saying we don't want you we limit our influence and teaching moments of what is appropriate.
 

NY.Light.II

Registered User
You are right the MILF section is not right but do think the public uses your judgment or the judgment I have that Freemasonry is for all men of all type. I have to play dress up and ware close that are appropriate for business everyday so someone can judge me as a good person. As a Director in a multi billion dollar business I do that it pays the bills. But I always know who is good or bad because of their actions and knowledge not their suit. This is why it is the internal and not the external mason are to look at. If I see someone come in for a job wearing blue jeans but they can impress me with wisdom, knowledge and wit I will hire them over a person wearing a suit but doesn't have the spark I look for. I also tell them they must also play the business dress up game when I know they are like me a blue jean black leather wearing biker at hart like me. As Freemasons we are not trying to limit people that join to one canadate like for a job, but except all that want light.

So by judging groups because of the content of a web site and saying we don't want you we limit our influence and teaching moments of what is appropriate.

I may have misunderstood this post as it was difficult to read (multiple grammatical errors).

I cannot agree that an individual or group of individuals cannot judge something by its consequences. Actions are the best indicator of inner character and intention. As you rightly point out, it is the inward that constitutes goodness. Outward expressions, therefore, should speak to that inner goodness. Whether it is dressing professionally or communicating respectfully, individuals should at least give pause when they notice improper action. When something needs to be condemned, like the MILF grievance, it should be condemned, and I applaud any man who has the strength to publicly address such an issue. There is nothing, IMO, inherently wrong with motorcycle clubs or with the WSMC. I do think there have been excesses in the group, and it is the duty to of any mason to ensure that a group that uses the Masonic name/symbols act in accordance with the ideals it claims to uphold.
 

Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
No, there is nothing inherently wrong with the organization

I agree it is the internal and not the external. Yet again, dress is not the issue involved.

A group is made up of members. The members of the group were not rejected, the are still Masons; only their desire to use the Masonic emblem to their own ends.
 

pointwithinacircle2

Rapscallion
Premium Member
There is nothing, IMO, inherently wrong with motorcycle clubs.
No, there is nothing inherently wrong with the organization.
For me the best comment on this topic came from Van Halen who said:

"you know I've been to the edge, and I stood and looked down
I lost a lot of friends there baby, I got no time to mess around"

I own a two wheeled motorized conveyance and a set of black leathers. But I no longer refer to it as a bike, or to myself as a biker, and I do not belong to a MC. There are three reasons for this. First, being a "biker", whether we like it or not, is associated with being an outlaw. While it is true that 99% of riders are not outlaws, the public still clings to the perception that we might be. Second, Riding a motorcycle gives one a sense of freedom and danger. I enjoy this feeling, that's why I own a motorcycle. But, while I enjoy the danger, I do not wish to appear dangerous. I simply do not wish to appear to be part of a "gang", even a benevolent gang. Third, well, I have been to the edge, and I have lost friends there. I have no wish to do so again. My friends deaths do not represent my "Glory Days", they are the mistakes of my youth.

If there are Masons who wish to get all "patched up" and ride as a group, well, I understand that. I am sure they are no different than suburban youths wear lots of bling, sag their pants, speak urban slang, and throw gang signs. I'm sure 99% of them aren't bad people, they just want to have fun and enjoy a little danger. I have no problem with that. But neither do I wish to be associated with it.

I no longer dance on the edge claiming "hey, I look like a bad guy but technically I am not". Today I stay back from the edge. I think that is what a role model does.

As I stated in this thread on March 26, 2015: Rectitude does not mean getting as close to the line of dis-respectable behavior as you can and dropping a plumb line to prove that you have not actually crossed it. If you have to drop the plumb line, you have already lost.
 

jvarnell

Premium Member
I may have misunderstood this post as it was difficult to read (multiple grammatical errors).

I cannot agree that an individual or group of individuals cannot judge something by its consequences. Actions are the best indicator of inner character and intention. As you rightly point out, it is the inward that constitutes goodness. Outward expressions, therefore, should speak to that inner goodness. Whether it is dressing professionally or communicating respectfully, individuals should at least give pause when they notice improper action. When something needs to be condemned, like the MILF grievance, it should be condemned, and I applaud any man who has the strength to publicly address such an issue. There is nothing, IMO, inherently wrong with motorcycle clubs or with the WSMC. I do think there have been excesses in the group, and it is the duty to of any mason to ensure that a group that uses the Masonic name/symbols act in accordance with the ideals it claims to uphold.
Go read my profile and you will see why I had so many gramitical errors. Nothing a mason does with his brothers out side of lodge has anything with the duties as a mason. So why should a group of brothers riding motorcycles have an edict writen about not putting on th patch of the WS. The FMRC is excepted. My problem is the way the 2007 edict was writen.
 

Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
Go read my profile and you will see why I had so many gramitical errors. Nothing a mason does with his brothers out side of lodge has anything with the duties as a mason. So why should a group of brothers riding motorcycles have an edict writen about not putting on th patch of the WS. The FMRC is excepted. My problem is the way the 2007 edict was writen.

I am unaware of any GL which would accept this statement

1. If one commits crimes outside of Lodge, it is very much impacting their duties as a mason and may result in expulsion. Your Grand Lodge code ( and every regular grand Lodge of which I am aware ) indicates this.

2. If you use the Masonic emblem and you note your status as a mason, it is very much involved with your duties as a mason. Most Grand Lodge codes have language regarding bringing the fraternity into disrepute.
 

jvarnell

Premium Member
I am unaware of any GL which would accept this statement

1. If one commits crimes outside of Lodge, it is very much impacting their duties as a mason and may result in expulsion. Your Grand Lodge code ( and every regular grand Lodge of which I am aware ) indicates this.

2. If you use the Masonic emblem and you note your status as a mason, it is very much involved with your duties as a mason. Most Grand Lodge codes have language regarding bringing the fraternity into disrepute.
I did not say "commit a crime" I said do something wrong which can be legel but not ethical. so your 1. is an odd
 

Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
I did not say "commit a crime" I said do something wrong which can be legel but not ethical. so your 1. is an odd
Your statement is below. I am unaware of any GL which would accept it.


Go read my profile and you will see why I had so many gramitical errors. Nothing a mason does with his brothers out side of lodge has anything with the duties as a mason. So why should a group of brothers riding motorcycles have an edict writen about not putting on th patch of the WS. The FMRC is excepted. My problem is the way the 2007 edict was writen
.
 

Companion Joe

Premium Member
OK, I felt sure someone would bring it up, so I will:
(I have basically stalked this thread because I am and Mason, and I do ride a Harley)

The events this past weekend in the Texas biker community should be reason enough why Masons shouldn't dress up like hoodlums. Whether you like it or not, public perception is reality. If the public sees a bunch of guys dressed up like wannabe OMC members with a S&C on their cuts, the public lumps Masonry in with the Bandidos and the Cossacks.

If the public sees a group of guys dressed in suits and ties and holding down positions of prominent community members, Masonry is lumped with the elite of society.
 

MarkR

Premium Member
OK, I felt sure someone would bring it up, so I will:
(I have basically stalked this thread because I am and Mason, and I do ride a Harley)

The events this past weekend in the Texas biker community should be reason enough why Masons shouldn't dress up like hoodlums. Whether you like it or not, public perception is reality. If the public sees a bunch of guys dressed up like wannabe OMC members with a S&C on their cuts, the public lumps Masonry in with the Bandidos and the Cossacks.

If the public sees a group of guys dressed in suits and ties and holding down positions of prominent community members, Masonry is lumped with the elite of society.
I've tried to bring this exact thing up in the past, and have been called a "fuddy duddy" and told to "get off your high horse." I don't think the vests with rocker panel patches convey a good image at all.
 

HumbleTXMason

Premium Member
Regarding the incident in Waco this past Sunday: let's see what the investigation finds, but looks like things didn't happen as initially reported by Waco PD. The event was a meeting of the Texas Confederation of Clubs and Independents, not just a gathering of one "gang" that was crashed by another "gang" as described in the press after the incident.
 
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