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Women in masonry

Ripcord22A

Site Benefactor
And yet, you call them all Freemasonry. You can travel among those GLs in a way that non-Masons cannot. Why? Because it is one organization. Don't make the mistake of thinking that just because it can be divided up that it means it is not one organization. You're in the military. Your platoon is an organization. Your company is an organization. Your battalion is an organization. It might be made up of multiple different pieces, but it all falls under an overarching umbrella. Mainstream Freemasonry is the same thing. It is one organization, made up of many smaller units. What defines it as an organization and determines which are members and which are not are the landmarks.

Your example is flawed. each indv GL would be the ARMY and the subordinate lodges the BDE and the concordinate bodies the BN and the members the companies..ect. but to place that example on Freemasonry as a whole is flawed and heres why. TN doesnt accept gays but NM does. TN subordinate lodges cannot knowling innitate a gay man. NM can. there is nothing over TN GL to tell them they are wrong. If TN and NM were military units the ARMY would make that decision and then DoD would look at it, and if necessary then congress, then POTUS then SCoUSA. no such checks and balances exist in Freemasonry. As Coach said bellow it is a label placed upon many individual organizations
 
R

Ressam

Guest
Gentlemen.
But if it'll be assumed that:
Anderson Constitution or Mackey's Landmarks are -- documents.
And, every document can be corrected, for example -- even U.S. Constitution has been revised & there have been made amendments by U.S. Congress.
Question: is it possible, to make, for example -- some kind of Referendum, between all Freemasons, and allow women membership?
 
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R

Ressam

Guest
IMHO, the best solution to solve this "Women Membership" problem is to ask GAOTU, what He Desires about that.
But how? Cause every Freemason has it's own Deity, religion...
 

hanzosbm

Premium Member
Not all organizations have an overarching hierarchy. Let's say that you, Coach, and myself form an organization called the Society of Landmarks. The purpose of our organization is to meet and discuss the historical landmarks, in all their facets. We decide that there is no leader and that each of us gets an equal vote. No one is subordinate, there is no leader. Does that mean that we wouldn't still be an organization?
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
Well, having read your writings, I'd say that you'd be the authority on rubbish.
<sigh> It's clear that your ego got hurt enough to have started using backhanded compliments. I hope that such behavior is truly below your norm. You also do not have to write questions projecting absurdity to get your point across.

It was clear what I said.

"It is not a single organization. Freemasonry is a label placed upon many individual organizations. These are separate organizations that recognize and cooperate with each other."​

You didn't have to write what you did in response. Doing so created rubbish and I hope that such production is also below your norm.

You do not have to agree with how I view Freemasonic organizational structures. And I do not have to agree with you. I do not see Freemasonry as one organization, no matter how you choose to define it.

Freemasonry differs from one organization to another. It is not the same everywhere. We may sometimes talk about it as if it were one, but when we do, this behavior inevitably leads to problems down the road when assumptions are made and feelings get hurt.

Your last response to me is a classic example of this. I hope you get over it soon.
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
Not all organizations have an overarching hierarchy. Let's say that you, Coach, and myself form an organization called the Society of Landmarks. The purpose of our organization is to meet and discuss the historical landmarks, in all their facets. We decide that there is no leader and that each of us gets an equal vote. No one is subordinate, there is no leader. Does that mean that we wouldn't still be an organization?

Your example is not in line with Freemasonic structures and practices. Each Grand Lodge is a stand alone franchise organization that cooperates with others within specific agreed upon standards.

Let's say that we use your same argument and apply it upon Christianity, socialism, communism and Zen. Organizations can practice each. They can espouse each. They can align with what each denotes. They can collect money for each. They can bring members in using each name. That does not mean that any one of the labels named is an organization.

Neither is Freemasonry. Organizations can practice it; Espouse it; Align with it; Collect money for it; Bring members in using its name. That does not mean that IT is an organization.
 
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hanzosbm

Premium Member
<sigh> It's clear that your ego got hurt enough to have started using backhanded compliments. I hope that such behavior is truly below your norm. You also do not have to write questions projecting absurdity to get your point across.

It was clear what I said.

"It is not a single organization. Freemasonry is a label placed upon many individual organizations. These are separate organizations that recognize and cooperate with each other."​

You didn't have to write what you did in response. Doing so created rubbish and I hope that such production is also below your norm.

You do not have to agree with how I view Freemasonic organizational structures. And I do not have to agree with you. I do not see Freemasonry as one organization, no matter how you choose to define it.

Freemasonry differs from one organization to another. It is not the same everywhere. We may sometimes talk about it as if it were one, but when we do, this behavior inevitably leads to problems down the road when assumptions are made and feelings get hurt.

Your last response to me is a classic example of this. I hope you get over it soon.
You're right, it is below me, which is why I deleted it almost immediately. I should've held my tongue initially.
 

dfreybur

Premium Member
And yet, you call them all Freemasonry. You can travel among those GLs in a way that non-Masons cannot. Why? Because it is one organization.

Right. Normally we think the organizational aspect ends at the GL level and that's that. Lodges are Organizations of Masons with a hierarchy of officers. Grand Lodges are Organizations of lodges with a hierarchy of lodges.

We like to think that beyond that level every jurisdiction is sovereign so that's where the organization ends. There is still plenty of organization beyond the GL level. It's just that none of those higher levels of organization have the same sort of authority. That's why I switched from upper case Organization to lower case organization.

http://www.cgmna.org/ http://www.conferenceofgrandmasterspha.org/home.asp

The edges of the organization are ragged indeed. It gets hard to say who is and who isn't clandestine even though it tends to be easy to look up. It gets hard to say who is and who isn't regular as every GL has its own list of recognized GLs and the lists end up very different as the distance increases.

Because the ritual is so similar I could gain entry into all sorts of lodges who would welcome me if I showed up, yet I won't because I know about recognition issues.

Every time I relocate to a new geography, keep my old membership, affiliate with another GL my list of possible visits shrinks. I should now look in 3 lists to see if I can visit.
 

hanzosbm

Premium Member
Every time I relocate to a new geography, keep my old membership, affiliate with another GL my list of possible visits shrinks. I should now look in 3 lists to see if I can visit.

Yeah, that has been interesting for me as well. CA's recognition issues as of late are well known. KY recognizes Prince Hall but doesn't have visitation. I'm just waiting for the day when I visit a Nevada lodge with a Prince Hall Mason from Pennsylvania, a mainstream GA Mason, and an openly gay Mason from Oregon. I think everyone's heads will explode.
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
Yeah, that has been interesting for me as well. CA's recognition issues as of late are well known. KY recognizes Prince Hall but doesn't have visitation. I'm just waiting for the day when I visit a Nevada lodge with a Prince Hall Mason from Pennsylvania, a mainstream GA Mason, and an openly gay Mason from Oregon. I think everyone's heads will explode.
mindblowing.jpg
 

dfreybur

Premium Member
Yeah, that has been interesting for me as well. CA's recognition issues as of late are well known. KY recognizes Prince Hall but doesn't have visitation. I'm just waiting for the day when I visit a Nevada lodge with a Prince Hall Mason from Pennsylvania, a mainstream GA Mason, and an openly gay Mason from Oregon. I think everyone's heads will explode.

Religious diversity is less visible. We were walking from the lodge room to the dining hall in my mother lodge. An elderly Brother was proud of the religious diversity in our lodge. Many types of Protestant, Catholics, Orthodox, Jews. I looked across the group and smiled. The elderly Brother had no idea. We don't discuss religion in lodge so it isn't obvious how wide the diversity really is. In that group there were members of at least 2 non-JCI religions that our elderly Brother had likely never heard of. A Muslim Brother had ducked out of the meeting early to help cook the meal. A Buddhist regular wasn't there that week. And that doesn't even start on the diversity if you included other lodges in the district.

Visible or not we swim in diversity whether we know it or not.
 

MarkR

Premium Member
However, we are not a continuation of those guilds. We never were. That is lore, not fact.
How, then, do you explain The Lodge of Edinburgh #1 (Mary's Chapel) which has its minutes unbroken since 1599? They were then entirely operative. They are now entirely speculative. The minutes document the transition.
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
How, then, do you explain The Lodge of Edinburgh #1 (Mary's Chapel) which has its minutes unbroken since 1599? They were then entirely operative. They are now entirely speculative. The minutes document the transition.
Yes. They were entirely operative. Yes, at some point though they changed their business model, transitioning:

1) from working on stone and selling their stonecraft skills and products
2) to selling membership to men to experience total-immersion live-action alternative-reality role-playing social-theater that was scripted to use the lexicon, symbols and fabricated lore of stoneworkers to put on morality plays for private patrons​

They are not now speculative however. Speculative denotes being a speculative equivalent of an operative version. Just because a stonecraft lodge kept minutes since their beginning and it showed that they transitioned their business model, doesn't mean that they are continuing what they did from their beginning; they are not. No matter what illusion members who interpret their minutes want to have you buy into, calling a sausage an orange doesn't make what you have an orange; it's still a sausage.

From a wider view, the evidence is clear. We are not a continuation of what stonecrafts did prior to 1717 (or what they did after that either!) We are not even a speculative version of operative masonry. What they (stonecraft lodges) did (stonework for fee) and what we (Freemasons) do (total-immersion live-action alternative-reality role-playing social-theater with a moral purpose for fee) are two entirely different activities.

The practices they had and the practices we modern day members have are not different versions (Op. v Spec.) of each other. The two are not even close.

The fantasy is fun and quite enjoyable and participation does bring rewards, but the reality of our practices is far from the romantic dogma provided.

Thanks for asking Bro. Mark!
 
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Bloke

Premium Member
.......What they (stonecraft lodges) did (stonework for fee) and what we (Freemasons) do (total-immersion live-action alternative-reality role-playing social-theater with a moral purpose for fee) are two entirely different activities.... The two are not even close.The fantasy is fun and quite enjoyable and participation does bring rewards, but the reality of our practices is far from the romantic dogma provided.

Is that really all its been for you Coach ? Then why do you write books beyond how to improve ones acting skills ?

For me, Speculative Freemasonry might start with being a candidate in a quasi reality play, but that's only the start.
 
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coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
Is that really all its been for your Coach ?
Great question! It has not been that way at first. However, once I realized the reality of what Freemasonic organizations are actually doing, it explained a lot of the absolutely unnecessary confusion, insanity and drama.

Now I engage in what the society offers with a much stronger foundational understanding of what it is truly trying to accomplish. I am not so easily sucked into the unnecessary confusion, insanity and drama.
Then why do you write books beyond how to improve ones acting skills ?
Ah! You've taken offense to the Light I have shared. Well understood. Let's get into it.

Ritual (our privatized morality plays) is filled with allusions to what we can do to improve ourselves. I write books, memes, articles and produce videos to point out this fact and stress that it is not enough to have a road map; one must understand the road map, what it points to, what it offers us, and then travel its territories!

Yes. If you're going to just memorize scripts and vomit them back, you're just an actor. However, the whole of what the fraternity offers is acting with a moral purpose! What is that purpose: Transform yourself toward the better.

Our morality plays are there to point out there is Transformation Work that you can and should do!

Unfortunately, most members never move beyond learning and acting out the scripts. Far too many members don't even know that Ritual is there pointing the way. Once I realized I was one of the mass of men who didn't realize this, I started writing and providing insight to those members who suspected there was more, but didn't know how to find and access it.

I write "books beyond how to improve ones acting skills" because there exist men like me who want to get more out of the society than just being a plug-n-play actor supporting a degree factory.

For me, Speculative Freemasonry might start with being a candidate in a quasi reality play, but that's only the start.

WOW! Amazing! for me they are morality plays that direct each patron's attention toward what each needs to improve himself.

Unfortunately, most members do not take this Good Orderly Direction and actually apply it toward their lives in a deliberate way, beyond being really good actors supporting a system that they think is one thing but truly another.
 

Classical

Premium Member
My favorite discussions on this board have been the ones where brothers share some of the meaning they have derived from Masonry. Thanks Bloke and Coach!
 

BroBook

Premium Member
Women can not be Masons, but they can be part of the family, some reasons they can't one it would, be a distraction getting them prepared and during the ceremonies, it would get out of hand, but most importantly, they don't have the MM's pass!!!
 
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