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Women in masonry

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
Women can not be Masons, but they can be part of the family, some reasons they can't one it would, be a distraction getting them prepared and during the ceremonies, it would get out of hand, but most importantly, they don't have the MM's pass!!!
You are mistaken. There are female Masons and some are actually part of Freemasonic Orders. BTW - Those that are report no problems in the prep and the ceremonies or the MM's pass in their Order.
 

Bloke

Premium Member
Great question! .......Ah! You've taken offense to the Light I have shared. Well understood..

*smiles*

I knew you would bit and I generally agree with you, but the question "Then why do you write books beyond how to improve ones acting skills ?" was almost theoretical :) I've not taken offense but have got vaguely annoyed with "refer to this link" which you know because you're smart enough to remember my comment on the same, Mind you, I also use "refer to this link" LOL..

...Ritual (our privatized morality plays) is filled with allusions to what we can do to improve ourselves... If you're going to just memorize scripts and vomit them back, you're just an actor. However, the whole of what the fraternity offers is acting with a moral purpose! What is that purpose: Transform yourself toward the better..... for me they are morality plays that direct each patron's attention toward what each needs to improve himself....Unfortunately, most members do not take this Good Orderly Direction and actually apply it toward their lives in a deliberate way, beyond being really good actors supporting a system that they think is one thing but truly another.

I hope you don't mind me reducing your statement - I've done so hoping folk with know " ...." means there are bits between what I have quoted, and I am sure I've not changed your meaning or intent.

I agree, many Freemasons do not delve deeper, but like the passive pebble in a stream, the water of Freemasonry running over it can change a rough stone to the smooth, just by being in the moving water. I can point to things in me changed by my membership, but I am sure I've undergone change I don't even realize.

By the same token, the "acting" is simply a device, albeit a successful one, to deliver moral lessons. At the end of the day, Freemasonry itself is simply a device to make diverse men join together and lean from each other (including those lessons included in our ceremonies encapsulated both in our ideals, values and some of the "characters" in our story; including the candidate himself).

I walked out of my First Degree a changed man. With some new standards to live up to, and a fraternity of gentlemen to belong to. You can reduce this to a "device" as I have done, but by the same token it grossly sells what those touched by it experience.

All this has little to do with "woman in freemasonry" but good conversations generally move beyond where they started :)
 
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Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
Women can not be Masons, but they can be part of the family, some reasons they can't one it would, be a distraction getting them prepared and during the ceremonies, it would get out of hand, but most importantly, they don't have the MM's pass!!!
It would be more accurate to say women are not members of regular Freemasinry. Per UGLE:
WOMEN AND FREEMASONRY

There exist in England and Wales at least two Grand Lodges solely for women. Except that these bodies admit women, they are, so far as can be ascertained, otherwise regular in their practice. There is also one which admits both men and women to membership. They are not recognised by this Grand Lodge and intervisitation may not take place. There are, however, informal discussions from time to time with the women’s Grand Lodges on matters of mutual concern. Brethren are therefore free to explain to non-Masons, if asked, that Freemasonry is not confined to men (even though this Grand Lodge does not itself admit women). Further information about these bodies may be obtained by writing to the Grand Secretary.

The Board is also aware that there exist other bodies not directly imitative of pure antient Masonry, but which by implication introduce Freemasonry, such as the Order of the Eastern Star. Membership of such bodies, attendance at their meetings or participation in their ceremonies is incompatible with membership of this Grand Lodge.

(Extract from Report of Board of General Purposes, adopted 10 March 1999)
 

MarkR

Premium Member
Yes. They were entirely operative. Yes, at some point though they changed their business model, transitioning:

1) from working on stone and selling their stonecraft skills and products
2) to selling membership to men to experience total-immersion live-action alternative-reality role-playing social-theater that was scripted to use the lexicon, symbols and fabricated lore of stoneworkers to put on morality plays for private patrons​

They are not now speculative however. Speculative denotes being a speculative equivalent of an operative version. Just because a stonecraft lodge kept minutes since their beginning and it showed that they transitioned their business model, doesn't mean that they are continuing what they did from their beginning; they are not. No matter what illusion members who interpret their minutes want to have you buy into, calling a sausage an orange doesn't make what you have an orange; it's still a sausage.

From a wider view, the evidence is clear. We are not a continuation of what stonecrafts did prior to 1717 (or what they did after that either!) We are not even a speculative version of operative masonry. What they (stonecraft lodges) did (stonework for fee) and what we (Freemasons) do (total-immersion live-action alternative-reality role-playing social-theater with a moral purpose for fee) are two entirely different activities.

The practices they had and the practices we modern day members have are not different versions (Op. v Spec.) of each other. The two are not even close.

The fantasy is fun and quite enjoyable and participation does bring rewards, but the reality of our practices is far from the romantic dogma provided.

Thanks for asking Bro. Mark!
I wish I was as sure about being right about things as you are. I personally think that saying all that Mary's Chapel did was "transition their business model" is unsupported by evidence. There was no "total-immersion live-action alternative-reality role-playing social-theater" when the Scottish lodges started admitting men like Sir Robert Moray. Nobody really knows why they came, and why they were accepted. As S. Brent Morris put it, some time in the 17th century, it was as if a train went through a tunnel; when it entered the tunnel it was red; when it emerged it was blue. We don't know who painted it, and more importantly, we don't know why.

But I suppose you'll dismiss Morris as someone with an interest in perpetuating a myth.
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
It would be more accurate to say women are not members of regular Freemasinry. Per UGLE:
WOMEN AND FREEMASONRY

There exist in England and Wales at least two Grand Lodges solely for women. Except that these bodies admit women, they are, so far as can be ascertained, otherwise regular in their practice. There is also one which admits both men and women to membership. They are not recognised by this Grand Lodge and intervisitation may not take place. There are, however, informal discussions from time to time with the women’s Grand Lodges on matters of mutual concern. Brethren are therefore free to explain to non-Masons, if asked, that Freemasonry is not confined to men (even though this Grand Lodge does not itself admit women). Further information about these bodies may be obtained by writing to the Grand Secretary.

The Board is also aware that there exist other bodies not directly imitative of pure antient Masonry, but which by implication introduce Freemasonry, such as the Order of the Eastern Star. Membership of such bodies, attendance at their meetings or participation in their ceremonies is incompatible with membership of this Grand Lodge.

(Extract from Report of Board of General Purposes, adopted 10 March 1999)
Agreed with one slight adjustment:

It would be more accurate to say women are not members of RECOGNIZED Male-Craft Freemasonry. Per UGLE: WOMEN AND FREEMASONRY

Regularity is set and determined by the GL. Since female-craft GLs set and determine regularity for themselves, they are regular; just not to male-craft GLs.​
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
I wish I was as sure about being right about things as you are.
<giggle>Then do your research, practice and make it a reality. ;-)

BTW - I am not sure about "being right". I am confident in what I say. There is a huge difference.
I personally think that saying all that Mary's Chapel did was "transition their business model" is unsupported by evidence.
As is your right. We are all just sharing opinions here.
There was no "total-immersion live-action alternative-reality role-playing social-theater" when the Scottish lodges started admitting men like Sir Robert Moray.
Agreed!
Nobody really knows why they came, and why they were accepted.
But are you so sure about this? Evidence says differently.
As S. Brent Morris put it, some time in the 17th century, it was as if a train went through a tunnel; when it entered the tunnel it was red; when it emerged it was blue. We don't know who painted it, and more importantly, we don't know why.

But I suppose you'll dismiss Morris as someone with an interest in perpetuating a myth.
What I stated does not conflict with Brother Brent's statements.

If you believe that that business transition was instantaneous or that it was conscious or deliberate on their part with an end-in-mind, we will have to disagree. I believe the transition was a series of choices and decisions that were motivated by money, personal interests and short term goals.

When you examine what they did then and what Freemasons do now, it should be clear that the two operations are as different from each other as living the dream and acting out a fantasy. It should also be clear too that their business model was originally premised upon bringing members in to teach them stonecraft and to make them productive stonecraft workers for the business.

The moment they chose to include members who were not going to support that business model is the moment they chose to sell membership into something else to create a revenue stream not dependent upon sales of stonecraft product and services but upon an offered theater that was not stonecraft.

Keep in mind, the common thread between the stonecraft lodge activities and what is now referred to as the early "speculative" period was the dinner parties both offered that included drinking, eating, singing, discourse and, ...wait for it... entertainment.

To tie this back into the main theme, it should be clear that the wives of these included men had to be appeased and in about 100 years of so of these dinner party activities occurring that were put on for the benefit of all involved, they enacted a rule to assure that no man could be excluded due to the concerns of any wife who feared that he was part of a dinner party society that had women as members.

Sadly, there is very little dinner party activity going on in this GL era. All that we typically have offered to us now, beyond Degree activities, are boring business meetings, installations and GL visits.
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
*smiles*

I knew you would bit [SIC] and I generally agree with you, but the question "Then why do you write books beyond how to improve ones acting skills ?" was almost theoretical :) I've not taken offense but have got vaguely annoyed with "refer to this link" which you know because you're smart enough to remember my comment on the same, Mind you, I also use "refer to this link" LOL..
I'm glad to hear that you did not take offense. I'm deeply concerned that you're only vaguely annoyed. I was shooting for something much more disturbing. :)
I hope you don't mind me reducing your statement - I've done so hoping folk with know " ...." means there are bits between what I have quoted, and I am sure I've not changed your meaning or intent.
I believe they are called "ellipsis" and are usually used as follows, "...". Any more periods shows a proclivity for banging upon the keyboard unnecessarily. :)
I agree, many Freemasons do not delve deeper, but like the passive pebble in a stream, the water of Freemasonry running over it can change a rough stone to the smooth, just by being in the moving water. I can point to things in me changed by my membership, but I am sure I've undergone change I don't even realize.
STOP! You have me at "I agree..."!
By the same token, the "acting" is simply a device, albeit a successful one, to deliver moral lessons.
Of Course it is! It is profoundly moving, to the right audience.
At the end of the day, Freemasonry itself is simply a device to make diverse men join together and lean from each other (including those lessons included in our ceremonies encapsulated both in our ideals, values and some of the "characters" in our story; including the candidate himself).
It is a vehicle that forces no one to do anything.
I walked out of my First Degree a changed man.
Amazing! How specifically were "you" changed?
With some new standards to live up to, and a fraternity of gentlemen to belong to. You can reduce this to a "device" as I have done, but by the same token it grossly sells what those touched by it experience.

All this has little to do with "woman in freemasonry" but good conversations generally move beyond where they started :)
Agreed!
 

Ripcord22A

Site Benefactor
I walked out of my First Degree a changed man.
Ill be Honest, I didnt. Going through the degrees was interesting and fun but I didnt really get anything out of it untill I saw them done, participated in them, and started studying them. Honestly I get more out of it by watching them now then I did being the candidate. I do however volunteer to e the "candidate" when ever we do a practive or 'MOCK' degree. This does not mean that I agree with classes or multiple candidates. I think seeing the degree with out having experienced it will not have the same effect of seeing it after having experienced it.

Kinda like watching a video of war on tv or the internet. It looks sacry and exciting and dangerous and what not....but if you have never been shot at, shot at someone else, had your vehilce blown up by a roadsife bomb, ect ect then you dont really get what its like. I watched a documetary on HBO the other day call "Only the Dead have seen the end of war" and there were certain sceans where my adrenaline spiked, my heart raced and it made me want to go back to Iraq. My wife was sitting there watching with me and at one point the a terriorst dude got smoked by some US soldiers and they dragged him over to a walled court yard to search him he was still sorta "alive". by alive i mean he still had a pulse and was trying to breath but half his brain was no longer in his skull. My wife looked at me and I was kinda smirking. He had got what he deserved. She said " I dont know how dealt with stuff like this." and got up and left the room. She didnt understand it. Just like a candidate sitting on the sidelines wont get it fully.
 
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dfreybur

Premium Member
By the same token, the "acting" is simply a device, albeit a successful one, to deliver moral lessons.

There are groups that teach "Fake it until you make it" because acting successful in business tends to lead to success in business. I content that participation in our degrees works that way on character. We act out the characters in a story of a great act of dedication to doing what is right at all times. Each of us acts as the star of the events at least once. Many of us act every part many times. It has to have some small amount of impact on us.

BTW - I am not sure about "being right". I am confident in what I say. There is a huge difference.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_semantics

General semantics teaches that all knowledge is provisional. When we think we're right what we actually think is that so far we haven't learned ways that we were wrong so that we could improve.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

The Scientific Method teaches us that all data has "error bars" that estimate the uncertainty of our knowledge. This makes all theory provisional, but better than that it gives us tools to estimate the degree of real certainty we may have in acting like any one provisional stance is "right". Being "right" is really a matter of how many decimal places at this moment in this circumstance.

There are times when we know the size of the error bars. That's when our confidence is real. with inorganic chemistry I have never even touched an instrument that is capable of changing any digit of any entry in a book of inorganic chemistry tables. I know there's more to inorganic chemistry than is know today but if I reference any entry in a table from the CRC book I know exactly how confident I can be.

There are other times when we guess at the size of the error bars. When we guess they are small that's called being confident. But well educated men know that the uncertainty never goes away in human endeavors.

This blurb should go in the "What is Philosophy" thread I think, but here it is thanks to thread drift.
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_semantics

General semantics teaches that all knowledge is provisional. When we think we're right what we actually think is that so far we haven't learned ways that we were wrong so that we could improve.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

The Scientific Method teaches us that all data has "error bars" that estimate the uncertainty of our knowledge. This makes all theory provisional, but better than that it gives us tools to estimate the degree of real certainty we may have in acting like any one provisional stance is "right". Being "right" is really a matter of how many decimal places at this moment in this circumstance.

There are times when we know the size of the error bars. That's when our confidence is real. with inorganic chemistry I have never even touched an instrument that is capable of changing any digit of any entry in a book of inorganic chemistry tables. I know there's more to inorganic chemistry than is know today but if I reference any entry in a table from the CRC book I know exactly how confident I can be.

There are other times when we guess at the size of the error bars. When we guess they are small that's called being confident. But well educated men know that the uncertainty never goes away in human endeavors.

This blurb should go in the "What is Philosophy" thread I think, but here it is thanks to thread drift.
Yep. Hence my comment.
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
<snicker>
bill-nye-debate-meme-4.jpg
 

zouzoum

Registered User
Brethren , this is the first time i receive this number of comments on a post i make on this app . Now i agree why no woman should be a mason . They will get more attention and distract us from doing the Great Work :p
 

Bloke

Premium Member
I'm glad to hear that you did not take offense. I'm deeply concerned that you're only vaguely annoyed. I was shooting for something much more disturbing. :)

We should both try harder :)

I believe they are called "ellipsis" and are usually used as follows, "...".

Googled and confirmed, proud of me ? :) Thanks, I didn't know that, now I do :)

Amazing! How specifically were "you" changed?

I walked out feeling I had a new responsibility to live up to the ideals communicated. A lot of the ideas were already my own, but for instance recreational marijuana use was something I occasionally did, in my new character as a Freemason, it's something I stopped. In the South that night, I learned about "pocket, heart & hand" which was a new way of expressing how we help each other as humans, reinforcing the lessons learned in the lodge room. I was given a framework (for expressing) within the lodge how to treat others and play a role in society. All this greatly appealed, I'd come to Freemasonry volunteering for an organisation where my proposer was another volunteer, so it's not like a got spark to go and do good (I was already doing a lot of that and it's what brought me to Freemasonry) but I did leave with an inspiration to be a better man and a vehicle to express "masonic values', if that makes sense.

Right at the end of our ceremony, the last "values" overtly communicated are ".... I am led to hope that you will duly appreciate the value of Freemasonry and imprint indelibly imprint on your heart the sacred dictates of
TRUTH,
of HONOUR,
and of
VIRTUE
".

I guess the above was one of several main ideas I latched onto and still to this day try to live up to. But we all know Freemasonry is more subtle and deeper than just the above quote..

I felt I had joined a meritorious organization full of meritorious men and needed to live up to both those things. That aspiration changed me for the better and still does today.

I think describing a Good Freemason as a man who tries to grow, believes in self improvement while trying to support and improve those around him using pocket heart and hand while daily striving to live to the values of Truth, Honour, and Virtue combined with the 4 cardinal and 3 theological virtues is a good way to describe a Freemason..

In essence, I guess I just left the lodge feeling transformed with tools to express and tweak my values and goals.

The four way test in Rotary
  1. Is it the truth?
  2. Is it fair to all concerned?
  3. Will it build goodwill and better friendships?
  4. Will it be beneficial to all concerned
imparts some of this, but I guess one of the ways Freemasonry is different is because it is ritualized and also includes and obligation while overtly acknowledging the existence (and in my view, presence) of the GAOTU and respected peers....

I don't know Coach, I am not sure I can really put it into words with 5 minutes of thought and writing a post, nothing will do it justice. The best way to see it is to know me; which is how it should be with all Freemasons.

I score myself 6.5/10 on the above attempt LOL
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
We should both try harder :)
I agree!!!! :)
Googled and confirmed, proud of me ? :) Thanks, I didn't know that, now I do :)
Yes! I am, and in a Brotherly way too!!!
I walked out feeling I had a new responsibility to live up to the ideals communicated. A lot of the ideas were already my own, but for instance recreational marijuana use was something I occasionally did, in my new character as a Freemason, it's something I stopped. In the South that night, I learned about "pocket, heart & hand" which was a new way of expressing how we help each other as humans, reinforcing the lessons learned in the lodge room. I was given a framework (for expressing) within the lodge how to treat others and play a role in society. All this greatly appealed, I'd come to Freemasonry volunteering for an organisation where my proposer was another volunteer, so it's not like a got spark to go and do good (I was already doing a lot of that and it's what brought me to Freemasonry) but I did leave with an inspiration to be a better man and a vehicle to express "masonic values', if that makes sense.

Right at the end of our ceremony, the last "values" overtly communicated are ".... I am led to hope that you will duly appreciate the value of Freemasonry and imprint indelibly imprint on your heart the sacred dictates of
TRUTH,
of HONOUR,
and of
VIRTUE
".

I guess the above was one of several main ideas I latched onto and still to this day try to live up to. But we all know Freemasonry is more subtle and deeper than just the above quote..

I felt I had joined a meritorious organization full of meritorious men and needed to live up to both those things. That aspiration changed me for the better and still does today.

I think describing a Good Freemason as a man who tries to grow, believes in self improvement while trying to support and improve those around him using pocket heart and hand while daily striving to live to the values of Truth, Honour, and Virtue combined with the 4 cardinal and 3 theological virtues is a good way to describe a Freemason..

In essence, I guess I just left the lodge feeling transformed with tools to express and tweak my values and goals.

The four way test in Rotary
  1. Is it the truth?
  2. Is it fair to all concerned?
  3. Will it build goodwill and better friendships?
  4. Will it be beneficial to all concerned
imparts some of this, but I guess one of the ways Freemasonry is different is because it is ritualized and also includes and obligation while overtly acknowledging the existence (and in my view, presence) of the GAOTU and respected peers....

I don't know Coach, I am not sure I can really put it into words with 5 minutes of thought and writing a post, nothing will do it justice. The best way to see it is to know me; which is how it should be with all Freemasons.

I score myself 6.5/10 on the above attempt LOL
Neat! Thank you!!!! :)
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
I wish I was as sure about being right about things as you are.
<giggle>Then do your research, practice and make it a reality. ;-)

BTW - I am not sure about "being right". I am confident in what I say. There is a huge difference.
Actually, it has been my personal experience that the more I read and study on any topic, the less I think I know about it.
You sure sound very confident in your conclusion about your efforts. I am assured by your words that you are absolutely right, as you had wished for -- KUDOS! :)

Unfortunately, the downside is that you also sound like your approach coupled with your view is counterproductive in building the actual confidence you wish for. Perhaps a different approach and view might help. o_O

BTW - Your "out-of-context" quote of my words displayed them far more seriously than they were intended. Perhaps exploring humor and it various intents and applications would also help too. :D

My own experience is that ignorance is not bliss. It's usually filled with much more unanticipated woes than I want. It's far better to know that I don't know than to mistakenly believe that I do know. I hope that you would agree and see the same for yourself.

One additional thought. I temper the above with: It's far better to know that what is put before me is not right, than to assume that it is right and invite thoughts, actions and results based upon that assumption.

The latter does invite much woe too when not understood and applied confidently. ;)
 

dfreybur

Premium Member
Well, you both make me feel better. Wandering around unable to see; concentrating on accurately repeating on what is being said and not concentrating on its meaning, really didn't teach me much.

Interesting. How each of us have so very different reactions to so similar events, yet the shared experience binds us across the world even with those different reactions.

For me it started out meaningful in the lesson of trust. My friends had recommended the lodge to me and I liked the guys I met there but at the time of my Initiation I didn't know any of them all that well. I put my trust in these new acquaintances and I delivered myself into their hands. I stepped out in faith that they would take good care of me and they did. At all times I could feel the Senior Deacon next to me with the sleeve of his shirt just barely touching my arm as we stood or his hand on my arm guiding me as we walked.

Then I noticed the repetition in the words and I started focusing on remembering what to say the next time. This engaged the intellectual part of my mind as my stepping out in faith had engaged the emotional part of my mind.

Then I saw the Worshipful Master and looked around to see all of the Brothers gathered around me like in a military formation. This engaged the social part of my mind. Each step adding a layer of meaning to the event. Each step distracting my mind from the previous layers that churned processing deep inside my subconscious.

By the time the lecture started it was more than I could process. I sat there amazed at the expertise but having no idea what was being said. So I let the words pour over me sort of like the icing on a layer cake. Or the polishing finish of a wall once its stones have been set in place.
 
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