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Deist or Irreligious Freemasons

RhushidaK

Registered User
Are there any deists or irreligious, regular Freemasons here? If so, what do you have as VSL while swearing? And how do you see them as in general?

Note: Irreligious here would denote Freemasons who believe in a god, but do not follow any religion.
 

Bloke

Premium Member
Interesting. But then what did you swear on? I have read about two different VSLs used, the Jefferson Bible and a blank book.
Your in India? I would think you'd seen a few VSLs... in my lodge I've seen Bibles, Korans, Gitas and Buddhist texts used as VSLs and visited Lodges with the Talmud...

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Scoops

Registered User
Counting myself as a Panentheist, in theory, I'd have been happy taking my Obs. on any Holy Book that is an interpretation of the Divine Will. In practice, I used a Bible as it's the book I'm most familiar with having been raised as a Christian.
 
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RhushidaK

Registered User
Cool..
@Scoops I'm a panentheist too. My beliefs lie quite close to that of Advaita Vedanta in Hinduism. And I swore my obs. on the Gita.

@Bloke Yup. We always have five VSLs on the altar. The Gita, Bible, Quran, Guru Granth Sahib (the Sikh book) and Zend Avesta (the Zoroastrian book).
 

RhushidaK

Registered User
Interesting.. But what if someone does not believe that there is specifically a revealed text by God? Since the requirement for being a Freemason is having faith in God, and not necessarily belonging to any religion.
 
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Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
Interesting.. But what if someone does not believe that there is specifically a revealed text by God? Since the requirement for being a Freemason is having faith in God, and not necessarily belonging to any religion.
Two different issues arise. 1. Not believing in a revealed text does not prohibit taking an obligation on such. 2. In some jurisdictions, membership would be prohibited. For instance, Texas requires on its petition for the degrees a belief in the the divine authenticity of the volume of sacred law (and the US Constitution). http://grandlodgeoftexas.org/assets/uploads/2015/10/26.pdf
 

RhushidaK

Registered User
Owww.. 1 Yes of course
But for 2, is that allowed? Allowing membership to only those who have revealed scriptures? Or is that upto the Grand lodge?
 

Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
Owww.. 1 Yes of course
But for 2, is that allowed? Allowing membership to only those who have revealed scriptures? Or is that upto the Grand lodge?
Yes, yes, and yes, as seen in the link.

Remember, we have GLs which are Christian, and until 1984, UGLE condoned excluding Latter-day Saints.
 

RhushidaK

Registered User
Ouch.. That's sad.. My personal opinion of course. Freemasonry should be for all. Not including women, I can understand, since it's a fraternity. Atheists I can understand since Freemasonry is based on the fatherhood of God. But it's sad if a GL limits people according to religion or race or sexual orientation.. Hope they change that one day.
 

dfreybur

Premium Member
I don't think the word "irreligious" works for men who are not members of any specific religion, but that's a terminology issue.

A friend asked me about the Masons then mentioned that he didn't believe in churches. I responded that Masonry requires a belief in a supreme being and that's not the same as human organizations. This led to a year of discussions over lunch. Then he asked for a petition and I helped him select a lodge and work through his degrees. He was a man of faith without a specific religion or church.

Masonry teaches us to be better members of our chosen church and also to be more generous of heart. My friend took those lessons to heart and ended up attending a local church. As he'd started out believing in the existence of a supreme being he didn't need to convert he just started showing up. His objections had been to the history of the human organization.

Deists have been fairly common in Masonry in the US. It's an idea that becomes more then less popular across the decades. As the idea accepts the existence of a supreme being deists have long been welcome in our lodges.
 

Bloke

Premium Member
Two different issues arise. 1. Not believing in a revealed text does not prohibit taking an obligation on such. 2. In some jurisdictions, membership would be prohibited. For instance, Texas requires on its petition for the degrees a belief in the the divine authenticity of the volume of sacred law (and the US Constitution). http://grandlodgeoftexas.org/assets/uploads/2015/10/26.pdf

Wow. Thank you for that link Bro Glen.

"Firm belief" in the Divine Authenticity of the VSL... i did not know that. If we had that here, we'd have A LOT less Freemasons. If that had of been a requirement, I would not have been able to join.. or would have spent a long time Soul Searching... All other questions, including components of that one and even belief in the USA Const are okay but if you put the form in front of me right now, I would not be able to sign it. I'd cross that out and take my chances. Would the same be true for affiliation ? Looks like I can't be a Texan Freemason under that GL..
 
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Ripcord22A

Site Benefactor
Wow. Thank you for that link Bro Glen.

"Firm belief" in the Divine Authenticity of the VSL... i did not know that. If we had that here, we'd have A LOT less Freemasons. If that had of been a requirement, I would not have been able to join.. or would have spent a long time Soul Searching... All other questions, including components of that one and even belief in the USA Const are okay but if you put the form in front of me right now, I would not be able to sign it. I'd cross that out and take my chances. Would the same be true for affiliation ? Looks like I can't be a Texan Freemason under that GL..
Are u saying because u r Australian you dont believe in the authority of the US Constitution? what about if unwere visiting the US? Would u follow our laws? To me that is believing in the constitution.....

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RhushidaK

Registered User
Are u saying because u r Australian you dont believe in the authority of the US Constitution? what about if unwere visiting the US? Would u follow our laws? To me that is believing in the constitution.....

Well believing in the constitution would mean one thing. Being governed by them would be another. Much like an Australian would not be governed by the US Constitution in Australia, a Christian would not believe that a Quran is divine revelation, and vice versa. Which is where the difference between Freemasons and common men would come in. We have divine revelations/divine will of our own faiths in God. We need not believe that all books are divine revelation, but we still give respect to all VSLs. That is where Brotherhood would come in. Likewise, irreligious or deists might not have a revealed scripture, but they have respect for and take their obligations on VSLs still, as symbolic of Divinity. (My interpretation; This may be different for other brethren).

So likewise, I may not believe in any revealed scripture, but I still took my obs on a Gita, as symbolic of the will of God. For me, it would be the same even I took my obs on a Bible, Quran, Torah, Tripitaka, Jefferson Bible, Guru Granth Sahib, Zend Avesta or a blank book (much like normal water blessed to make holy water). Since for me, it signifies the greatness of God over man, and our inferiority portrayed by us not knowing God's will.
 
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Bloke

Premium Member
Are u saying because u r Australian you dont believe in the authority of the US Constitution? what about if unwere visiting the US? Would u follow our laws? To me that is believing in the constitution.....

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No my friend, I'm saying I would have not problem saying (or swearing) I have a firm belief in the US Constitution .... my issue would be solely on the "Firm belief " of the devine authenticity of any VSL, even the Bible, which is the Holy Text of my faith.
 

Bloke

Premium Member
No my friend, I'm saying I would have not problem saying (or swearing) I have a firm belief in the US Constitution .... my issue would be solely on the "Firm belief " of the devine authenticity of any VSL, even the Bible, which is the Holy Text of my faith.
Actually... requiring a firm belief in the "divine authority" of a VSL kinda conflicts with the right to Religious Freedom protected in the Constitution.... that Constitutional clause is the sort of thing which makes the USA Constitution a great document.....
 

MarkR

Premium Member
Actually... requiring a firm belief in the "divine authority" of a VSL kinda conflicts with the right to Religious Freedom protected in the Constitution.... that Constitutional clause is the sort of thing which makes the USA Constitution a great document.....
No, not really. The Constitution constrains the government from interfering in religion, it does not constrain private organizations from having rules.
 
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