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LK600

Premium Member
STRAIGHT FROM A PHA GOOD FRIEND: PHA Florida Recognized Mainstream Florida years ago via a letter to the FL MSGL and the Mainstream Florida GL ignored them. PHA Florida rescinded Recognition of FLMSGL after it received no response.

What you heard about PHA no wanting Recognition was not true when the PHA letter to Mainstream Florida was sent. It is FLMSGL's move next.

Fwiw, I have been advised the same thing as Masterbuilddawg... at least in how the matter stands now. As far as what you conveyed, I do not doubt that.
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
CouchN,

I have heard 2 different stories: 1. Is like I said in my other post that PHA did not want our recognition now the part I did not say was the reason. I was told that it was because PHA thinks we are not selective enough in petition process that we let anyone in that can pass a background check and have the money for the initiation fee.

2. Was the same as you said above that they had sent a letter recognition to our Grand Lodge but when they were informed that there was a process that needed to be completed for them to gain recognition they decline to go through the process.

Also something that is use as an excuse is the fact that there is a couple Grand lodges claiming to be Prince Hall. But I believe the one in Jacksonville to be the real one based on my limited research.

Now I heard both these stories from two different brothers that was at the very high up in our Grand Lodge at one time and continues the be very active. Also know that there is a groundswell of support for recognition in the craft and i have hope to see it come out each year when they release the proposed legislation but as yet not seen it.


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Yep. I've heard these too and a few more as well.

I too hope this will be resolved and soon enough for me to enjoy sitting with Brothers who clearly need to be recognized.
 

Ripcord22A

Site Benefactor
Yes my GL doesn't recognize PHA but that's because PHA does not want our recognition or so i heard but that's a topic for another day. If a black man asked me about joining and i know him to be worthy I would explain the difference in the 2 groups. Tell him to check and research both groups. Visit local lodges that while he could not attend meetings he could come to dinner as most MS lodge has a meal before meetings and meet the other brothers. I would recommend him do the same with PHA and since I have a coworker who is in PH I would put them in touch with each other. I would invite him to my lodge and be ready with a petition should he ask for. You see while I did not have first-hand knowledge of Prince Hall Masonry I do know a brother from a mainstream Lodge that came over from Prince Hall and he said that their work was pretty much the same with just a few minor differences also I have a co-worker who is a Prince Hall Mason and while we have never really discussed Masonry I know him to be a good and honorable man so I would have no problem recommending this black man to him and him to the black man. And while Florida does not have many we do have a few black Brothers. As to the eastern star that is true but I would recommend her to talk to someone in th OES as I am not member and do not know all the details. You see I have done some research into Prince Hall Masonry as I know a brother who used to be a Prince Hall Mason and I know I have a co-worker that is a Prince Hall Mason so I feel pretty confident that their organization is a safe organization that's why I wouldn't hesitate in recommending it a black man. But with Co Masonry and all female Lodge I do not have any real knowledge as I have not done the research as it has not been a top priority for me so I don't know them to be regular. I know of no Co masonry person who's coming over to the mainstream Lodge and I know no female Mason. That's why I would be hesitant in recommending either of those organizations. I've never had a woman asked me about joining Freemasonry but I do have young guys asking me about Freemasonry and that they've heard rumors that Freemasonry is still segregated and that it's homophobic and then I have to go on and explain exactly what Freemasonry is in my Grand Lodge and while I'm explaining that mention that if they have a wife or sister or somebody that wants to get involved in Freemasonry that there's the Eastern Star and Masonic youth associations. As far as recommendations go if I don't have first-hand knowledge or done the research or have information from a trusted Source on an organization or for that matter anything that I'm recommending I'm not going to recommend it but again that is my personal choice.

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I can respect that. What I would advise though is that from my limited research I have found more bogus/spurious/boarderline dangerous GLs claiming to be PHA then CO/Fem GLs.

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Roy_

Registered User
This thread is running off-topic, but I'm glad to see that most responders do not seem to object talking about mixed gender FM. That is (in my eyes) an improvement. Not too long ago when I joined this forum only mentioning that I was member of such an organisation unleashed havoc.

Would it be fun / educational to have a thread about mixed gender and "femalecraft" Freemasonry?
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
This thread is running off-topic, but I'm glad to see that most responders do not seem to object talking about mixed gender FM. That is (in my eyes) an improvement. Not too long ago when I joined this forum only mentioning that I was member of such an organisation unleashed havoc.

Would it be fun / educational to have a thread about mixed gender and "femalecraft" Freemasonry?
LOL! You act as if you should have expected differently from members of a male dominated forum who are members of male craft.
 

Ripcord22A

Site Benefactor
This thread is running off-topic, but I'm glad to see that most responders do not seem to object talking about mixed gender FM. That is (in my eyes) an improvement. Not too long ago when I joined this forum only mentioning that I was member of such an organisation unleashed havoc.

Would it be fun / educational to have a thread about mixed gender and "femalecraft" Freemasonry?
Ill admit it, i was one that didnt agree with it, still really dont...however I understand that it exists and offers something that my GL doesnt and there is nothing I can do about it. Also after reading what coach, glen and JC have said opened my eyes. Just cause my GL says something doesnt make it so outside of my borders! Also the PHA and gay situation made this topic a bit more clear for me as well

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Warrior1256

Site Benefactor
I'm glad to see that most responders do not seem to object talking about mixed gender FM. That is (in my eyes) an improvement. Not too long ago when I joined this forum only mentioning that I was member of such an organisation unleashed havoc.
I really have no problem with someone joining co-masonry, to each his own I say. However, I do have a problem when someone tells me that I SHOULD recognize it as legitimate and failure to do so makes me a bigot, sexist, etc., etc., etc.
 

Ripcord22A

Site Benefactor
I really have no problem with someone joining co-masonry, to each his own I say. However, I do have a problem when someone tells me that I SHOULD recognize it as legitimate and failure to do so makes me a bigot, sexist, etc., etc., etc.
I would also say that as long as they explain to their petitioners that their sect of Freemasonry is not what the World At Large recognizes as Freemasonry and that there will only be a small selection of lodges that they will be able to visit

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Warrior1256

Site Benefactor
I would also say that as long as they explain to their petitioners that their sect of Freemasonry is not what the World At Large recognizes as Freemasonry and that there will only be a small selection of lodges that they will be able to visit
Agreed.
 

JJones

Moderator
I really have no problem with someone joining co-masonry, to each his own I say. However, I do have a problem when someone tells me that I SHOULD recognize it as legitimate and failure to do so makes me a bigot, sexist, etc., etc., etc.

You know, this thread has encouraged me to do a good deal of reflection on this topic and I've come to the same conclusion. In fact, the reason I started this thread in the first place was that I've voiced my opinion on this topic in the past and was told I was ignorant, sexist, and so forth.

We don't have to agree to get along. I'll hear your opinions and thoughts but be prepared to hear mine as well.
 

Roy_

Registered User
Ill admit it, i was one that didnt agree with it, still really dont...however I understand that it exists and offers something that my GL doesnt and there is nothing I can do about it. Also after reading what coach, glen and JC have said opened my eyes. Just cause my GL says something doesnt make it so outside of my borders! Also the PHA and gay situation made this topic a bit more clear for me as well

Often things are presented black-and-white, while the Masonic landscape is very divers. It could well be that of three GLs two recognise one another but not the third, while that third is not necessarily the same from all points of the triangle, just look at 'the Georgia situation'.

History learns us that "regular" versus "irregular" is not an unchanging situation either. Only decades after the "Premier Grand Lodge" there already were three other, some "united" later on, other took centuries to recognise each other.

Then there are quite big differences between what is sometimes called "Anglo-American" and "continental" Freemasonry. Just think about the fact that the largest Masonic organisation in France allows their lodges to admit women. The fact that they don't play by exactly the same rules as your own GL, so there can be no visitation, does that mean that they practice 'false' FM? Like I said earlier, perhaps we should (try to) see which organisations are "otherwise regular in their workings", there is no reason to fight.

I really have no problem with someone joining co-masonry, to each his own I say. However, I do have a problem when someone tells me that I SHOULD recognize it as legitimate and failure to do so makes me a bigot, sexist, etc., etc., etc.

There will certainly be people who think that way, but it's similar the other way around. Organisations that do not play by the same rules as someone's GL are "clandestine" and should vanish, instead of just 'not recognised by my GL'. A better path, in my opinion, is to acknowledge that there are different forms of FM and some (many) may not be ours.

I would also say that as long as they explain to their petitioners that their sect of Freemasonry is not what the World At Large recognizes as Freemasonry and that there will only be a small selection of lodges that they will be able to visit

That is not entirely true. Say, you're a member of the Regular Grand Lodge of Belgium. They represent 6% of the Belgian Freemasons, so you will not be able to visit 94% of the Belgian lodges. Or you're a "regular" Mason from the USA and you travel to France... Masonic life is easier for "irregular" Masons in both countries. On a global scale you are undoubtedly correct.

Personally I don't really see this as an argument either way. In my country there are some 30 lodges that I can visit (mixed gender of different organisations) and some 180 ("regular") that I can't. I have a hard time enough to even visit all these 30 lodges once. When I look at Belgium there are hundreds of lodges that I can visit, but I probably never will. When I travel to some country, say Iceland, there are lodges that I can visit. I can only 'pick' from fewer lodges, but still many more than I will ever have the time for.

You know, this thread has encouraged me to do a good deal of reflection on this topic and I've come to the same conclusion. In fact, the reason I started this thread in the first place was that I've voiced my opinion on this topic in the past and was told I was ignorant, sexist, and so forth.

We don't have to agree to get along. I'll hear your opinions and thoughts but be prepared to hear mine as well.

Like I said above, as long as we recognise that we all are here and respect that people make choices that would not have been your own, we can inform people who are looking for more information and tell them about the differences without torching organisations that are not (recognised by) your own.
 

Warrior1256

Site Benefactor
A better path, in my opinion, is to acknowledge that there are different forms of FM and some (many) may not be ours.
I do acknowledge that there are different types of Masonry. But I also consider co-Masonry as irregular and clandestine. As I said, to each his own.
 

Roy_

Registered User
I do acknowledge that there are different types of Masonry. But I also consider co-Masonry as irregular and clandestine. As I said, to each his own.

"Irregular" to your organisation perhaps, "clandestine" not. Let's reserve that term for organisation that are only after people's money, while other may very well be "otherwise regular in their workings".

What country would that be, sir?

Netherlands.

While i know next to nothing about Co-masonry it seems more like the Odd-fellows to me

Odd-Fellows are a whole different game. The difference between "regular" and "irregular" is usually relatively small, far smaller than between FM and Odd-Fellows. The rituals are roughly identical (not more different than between "regular" lodges from different GL's (or even within one GL in some occasions), but the organisation does not (for example) explicitly require the belief in 'something higher' or explicitly forbid the discussion of religion or politics and only that is what makes them irregular. In 'my case', my organisation allows the initiation of women, but for the rest, the way we work is almost exactly the same as that of "regular" lodges. This is not entirely true in the Netherlands though, since our most-used ritual is based on Emulation, while the rituals of the (regular) Grand Orient of the Netherlands have their own history. Both both are obviously FM and nothing else.
 
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