Does Purgatory Exist?

[rhitland]

Rock on Brother Jones if we could all be that stead fast in our faith. You came with some great answers on the spot as well. I admire you for your passion and zeal. I am not one to believe that hell is eternal but the great thing about it is we can meet on the level and better discover how to treat one another in accordance to their believes.

 

[Nate Riley]

Rock on Brother Jones if we could all be that stead fast in our faith. You came with some great answers on the spot as well. I admire you for your passion and zeal. ...the great thing about it is we can meet on the level and better discover how to treat one another in accordance to their believes.

Right on.

For a masonic forum, we sure talk about religion a lot. Must be because we can't do it in the lodge.

 

[jonesvilletexas]

Thank you brother. I have been in the Gospel for over 38 years and a Mason for 26 years.
I just told my wife the other day one thing I love about Masonry is no matter what God you believe in, we can meet upon the level. And I do believe that with all my heart and soul.

 

[RedTemplar]

Thank you, Brother Jones, for your insight on what is for most a difficult subject to fully grasp. Any place, hot, dark or otherwise, without Jesus is a horrible state to spend eternity. I don't know for sure if Hell is literally hot, but I know that it is bad enough that my Savior died to keep me out of it.

 

[jonesvilletexas]

That he did my brother. I just will have to have faith and believe His word.

 

[rhitland]

So mote it be.

 

[drapetomaniac]

If we assume that those who never hear the gospel are granted mercy from God, we will run into a terrible problem. If people who never hear the gospel are saved, it is logical that we should make sure no one ever hears the gospel. The worst thing we could do would be to share the gospel with a person and have him or her reject it. If that were to happen, he or she would be condemned. People who do not hear the gospel must be condemned, or else there is no motivation for evangelism. Why run the risk of people possibly rejecting the gospel and condemning themselves when they were previously saved because they had never heard the gospel?

I wholeheartedly agree with all the logic. One variation I have is that God revealing himself in nature, in my opinion, is what allows people not exposed to not go to hell because Christian missionaries didn't have transportation.

I don't think Hell has to be the primary motivator for evangelism either. We do see a difference in various forms of evangelism too, where one group might be all about conversion another achieves conversion through service.

By a rough calculation looking at population estimates, that's about 2 billion people in the Americas alone who didn't ever hear the name Jesus.between his birth and Columbus.

It's incongruous to common doctrine to say they had a way out (even though scripture says God revealed himself which is why many are more ecumenical) - but I also think its incongruous to the religion as a whole too say billions of people went too hell because of the lack of transportation. The idea of Christian Salvation as the absolute only option is at odds with the idea of a merciful God who loves us in this problem.

 

[jonesvilletexas]

There is no problem with man having questions about the doctrine of God, but mans logic, when it comes to God should not come into play.

We cannot fully understand what God can and will do as far as His judgment to man on the subject.

I would never clam to know the mind of God.

This brings us to faith, and this is what we should concern ourselves with.

 

[Beehive Mason]

I believe that there is a doctinal confusion. Being a "Craddle Catholic" myself I can answer thusly:
Purgatory does exist. But it is not a punishment.

What was decided by the clergy is the status and validity of "limbo" a medieval concept based entirely on nothing. And no. Children do not belong there regardless of how or why any particular child comes to be in the afterlife - they do not deserve to pay for the sins of others.

So what then is purgatory? To put it simply... a bit like a car wash. It is a place where the souls of the departed go to be cleansed by the flame of the G:.A:.O:.T:.U:. ardent love. To be in purgatory is to shake off the rubbish that we tend to leave behind.
In other words... It is , in fact, where we get the chance to hue our rough ashlars and square our work perfect.

But, my Brethren, this is only a small "T" tradition of the Catholic Church and as always, everyone is free to accept whatever belief makes him feel closer to the Creator.

 

[RedTemplar]

Are the ones who have never heard of Christ doomed to spend eternity in Hell? I cannot answer that question, but consider this statement. "For whom much is given, much is required". Are the mentally handicapped held to the same standard as one with average intelligence?

 

[ncm_pkt]

I have to admit...it's great to see that masons can discuss religion outside of the lodge in a way different than most people would. The respect and consideratio we have for each other is great. Brotherly love

 

[Seeker]

There are prayers and offerings given for the benefit of the dead in 2 Maccabees 12:43-46. "It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they might be loosed from their sins." This is a verse of scripture used by the Catholic Church in support of their view on the existence of purgatory. 2 Maccabees is one of 7 books that are found in the Catholic Bible but typically not in Protestant Bibles.

 

[Blake Bowden]

There are prayers and offerings given for the benefit of the dead in 2 Maccabees 12:43-46. "It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they might be loosed from their sins." This is a verse of scripture used by the Catholic Church in support of their view on the existence of purgatory. 2 Maccabees is one of 7 books that are found in the Catholic Bible but typically not in Protestant Bibles.

Thanks!

 

[jwhoff]

Purgatory, reincarnation, Houston rush hour traffic. Keep your eyes on the prize! The journey thereby is not so important.

I thank the G.A.O.T. for leaving us all a path to reach our destiny. May all good brothers obtain the light.

 

[coachn]

What is the difference between Hell/Down and purgatory? :blush:

Your chosen experience.

Very good stuff but I am still a little confused on where non-believers or people who produce poor work go? If ones work is of straw and is burnt up and no reward given what happens to the person or their soul?

Great Questions and with the following offering:

Ephesians 2:8, 9; Romans 3:20, 28; Galatians 2:16 and James 2:24; Matthew 19:16-21

1. Saved by grace
   1. (Ephesians 2:8-9) - "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast."
   2. (Rom. 3:20, 28) - "because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin...For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."
   3. (Galatians 2:16) - "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
2. Saved by works
   1. (James 2:24) - "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."
   2. (Matthew 19:16-17) - "And behold, one came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?" 17And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."

Can it get any more confusing? It reads like we're between "a rock and a hard place."

Jesus taught that it was not the strict adherence to the law, but rather the spirit of the law that was important.
... Jesus was teaching us to approach scripture logically not literally.

I like! Only thing here I would change would be to word it as follows: Jesus was teaching us to approach scripture spiritually (as in figuratively) not literally.

Well that pretty much clears that up. If you are cast to this place is there hope of ever coming out? And if so how would one do that?

Re: Hope? YES!
To get out: Simply wake up!

IMO

Bro. Coach N

 

[rhitland]

Re: Hope? YES!
To get out: Simply wake up!

IMO

Bro. Coach N

So mote it be! Simply wake up!

 

[jweium]

If you get the chance, read Dante's Divine Comedy which explains Purgatory in the Catholic sense, it is a fun read if you like to read about gory stuff and good stuff as well

 

[jwhoff]

Yo Brother jweium ... here's hoping that you've made it past The Canterbury Tales by now. Those first two years of literature are what separates the chaff from the mettle in my book. I did so hate early English literature. Beowulf be damned!

 

[BEDickey]

my problem...

My only problem with the heaven/hell logic is the "child paradox" of original sin. If an adult kills a baby/child and accepts Jesus as his lord and savior he goes to heaven, but the child, being to young to accept or possibly even understand the word of God, goes to hell. No matter how people try to spin it, it just does not sit right with me, and is way out of line for a merciful loving God. Purgatory would be a good way to explain it, as all goodly people's with out knowledge of God end up there.

 

[Brent Heilman]

Re: my problem...

My only problem with the heaven/hell logic is the "child paradox" of original sin. If an adult kills a baby/child and accepts Jesus as his lord and savior he goes to heaven, but the child, being to young to accept or possibly even understand the word of God, goes to hell. No matter how people try to spin it, it just does not sit right with me, and is way out of line for a merciful loving God. Purgatory would be a good way to explain it, as all goodly people's with out knowledge of God end up there.

As another thought to this some Christian religions teach that since a child knows nothing of right or wrong or good and evil they cannot be a sinner. To be a sinner you would have to first know the difference in each of these things. As such any child that dies by what ever means is basically saved since they have no sin. As older kids and adults go though they must repent and be baptized for the remission of sin to be saved and go to Heaven since they do know they difference between these things. Of course it all boils down to which ever faith you believe. I for one do not go for the whole original sin thing but that's just me.