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Visitation Between Prince Hall and Regular Lodges

bupton52

Moderator
Premium Member
Our Annual Session is in June. Had to work out some kinks. We shall see.

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dfreybur

Premium Member
May is the deadline to submit legislation or the Dec annual communication. I posted in another thread the exact wording I will submit at my own lodge this week. If more lodges copy, sign and submit I would like that.

I was unable to convince sufficient PMs at my lodge to sign so I failed this year to submit with the wording I list above. Sigh. If at first you don't succeed, start stumping early next year and try again. I'm not going to stop until all states have recognition and all of my own jurisdiction have offered full recognition everywhere.
 

dfreybur

Premium Member
How many PMs do you imagine you need to submit a resolution?

The standard number of voting representatives for submitted legislation is 3 in all 3 of my jurisdictions. Voting representatives include WM, SW and JW as well as PMs. I was unable to convince enough of the entire set. I've had easier times convincing managers at work to make very large computer server purchases than I had at lodge.

I'll start stumping the issue earlier next year and incorporate any changes based on whatever passes at the December 2014 annual meeting.

In the long run I'll keep at the issue until all of my jurisdiction have offered full mutual recognition to all regular PHA jurisdictions on the list. Step by step it's a long term project with that as my final goal.
 

tomasball

Premium Member
It would be helpful to you to acquire and study the Constitution and Laws of the GL of Texas. Any single Past Master may propose a resolution. (Art. 172) I'm surprised someone didn't explain this to you while you were trying to recruit support.
 

pointwithinacircle2

Rapscallion
Premium Member
Re: Visitation Between Prince Hall and Regular Lod

As some around here keep saying, "Just a few more masonic burials".
Excuse me Brother, but this answer implies that the problem is people. I believe that the problem is Ideas. Like weeds in a garden, some Ideas must be removed. Perhaps we still have to few gardeners.
 

Levelhead

Premium Member
Sometimes it makes you think. I mean ok "supposedly " as the PH say Whats the big deal were all the same. But are we? Do we take the same obligations? Do we have the same degree ritual?

Its funny because the answer to this question can never be answered because prince hall don't know the exact answers about us and we will never know the exact answers about them.
Why? Because we took obligations to not have masonic communication with clandestine masons.

They are considered clandestine to us and we are clandestine clandestine to them.

So who evers trying to keep us separate made it so we couldn't even talk about ritual and compare and thus always have that thought that the other might be doing something bad or wrong due to no communication.


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Brother JC

Moderating Staff
Staff Member
Perhaps in your jurisdiction, but not in the majority if US. In both NM and CA (for example), members of the two Grand Lodges may intervisit. I have sat in lodge with the Grand Master of MWPHGLNM on several occasions. Neither of us considered the other to be clandestine.
 
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Levelhead

Premium Member
I would love to sit in a prince hall lodge and see the differences. But in florida thats not allowed at all.


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Brother JC

Moderating Staff
Staff Member
Hopefully that will change one day soon. There are so few states left like yours, so much Brotherhood to be shared.
 

dfreybur

Premium Member
Sometimes it makes you think. I mean ok "supposedly " as the PH say Whats the big deal were all the same. But are we? Do we take the same obligations? Do we have the same degree ritual

Yes. Anyone who has visited lodges in both branches will report that the differences between the branches are no larger than the differences state to state within branches. I am one of many brothers who reports that about more than one PHA jurisdiction. Vast numbers of brothers report the same about the many states that have long had visitation.

Its funny because the answer to this question can never be answered because prince hall don't know the exact answers about us and we will never know the exact answers about them.
Why? Because we took obligations to not have masonic communication with clandestine masons.

Remember what these words mean. They mean something specific. They mean passing a tiler and attending a tiled meeting. It is trivial to check what is necessary for regularity without passing a tiler - No jurisdiction holds its landmarks secret. No jurisdiction holds the questions on its petition secret. I also notice you incorrectly added the word "exact" in there. Try visiting the next state over and see how that works for you.

They are considered clandestine to us and we are clandestine clandestine to them.

The word clandestine means something specific and this isn't it. Clandestine means founded without valid authority. As the PHA branch still keeps the original charter from the Premier Grand Lodge of England they are not. Starting the day that UGLE recognized MW PHA GL of CT no stance has been able to justify calling PHA clandestine, no matter how biased the stance.

PHA is regular and there has been no way out of admitting that since the day UGLE declared PHA regular. Any statement by any grand lodge to the contrary is some mixture of ignorant and/or dishonest. Our leaders are humans and as such capable of ignorance and error so read and learn for yourself.

What remains is recognition and housekeeping details. For example when I read the California recognition offer list Delaware and New Hampshire were missing. This year I have been in correspondence with the California Gr Sec office to correct that. If needed I will submit legislation in 2015 to force that issue, completing the set that California has offered to..
 

bupton52

Moderator
Premium Member
Sometimes it makes you think. I mean ok "supposedly " as the PH say Whats the big deal were all the same. But are we? Do we take the same obligations? Do we have the same degree ritual?

Its funny because the answer to this question can never be answered because prince hall don't know the exact answers about us and we will never know the exact answers about them.
Why? Because we took obligations to not have masonic communication with clandestine masons.

They are considered clandestine to us and we are clandestine clandestine to them.

So who evers trying to keep us separate made it so we couldn't even talk about ritual and compare and thus always have that thought that the other might be doing something bad or wrong due to no communication.


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I believe that if you took the time to ask the other 40 or so states that share mutual recognition with the PHGLs in their states, you'd find the answer to what differences, if any, there are. ALL PHGLs are regularly formed and practice freemasonry just like the GL of State does. By any chance, did the PHGL in Florida become the only one that is clandestine?
 

Levelhead

Premium Member
Maybe i used the wrong word. Maybe instead of clandestine i should use the words "not recognized" .

My whole point is IT SUCKS that another man took the same obligations as me (as im told are the same) and got raised the same way as me (as im told was the same) and we cant live in masonic brotherhood and share the love.

I personally believe , no matter who, what color, what religion, what race.... If you are a brother you are a brother.




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bupton52

Moderator
Premium Member
I wish that there was a universal masonic definition for clandestine that all of us used.

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Squire Bentley

Premium Member
There is a univerrsal Masonic definition for clandestine. Clandestine means not chartered by a duly recognized authority or Grand Lodge. Most of these truly clandestine Grand Lodges have corporation charters from their state. These are civil charters not Masonic charters. A duly recognized charter would be one issued from a Grand Lodge that is recognized by the Confeence of Grand Masters of both Mainstream Masonry and PHA Masoney and/or the UGLE. If you don't have the proper papers of foundation you are not duly chartered. If you claim to have a pure bred dog but the dog is not AKC registered or recognized, then it is not pure bred, it does not have proper papers.
 
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