hanzosbm
Premium Member
I would say that it IS 'out of the ordinary' to do a one day conferral of all 3 degrees. Does it happen? Yes. But I do not think it is an ordinary occurrence.
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Historic time between degrees
- Thread starter hanzosbm
- Start date
dfreybur
Premium Member
In the US all the way in one day classes happen in some states not in others. I think it is unusual enough to be remarked upon but not so unusual as to be considered a freak event.
Even when it is allowed sometimes it has not been done - In Illinois it is allowed for the GM to call such a class but it has been over a decade. The last single candidate "make a Mason at sight" was conducted by the combined grand lines of two states on a grandson of MWPM Harry Truman. In Illinois multiple times per year there are events that do the 2nd and 3rd together in the same day. That oddness might be unique to Illinois.
For a while many incoming brothers wanted less work because they wanted to get to appendent bodies sooner. In the new generation this trend has reversed. They mostly want more value and thus more work.
Even when it is allowed sometimes it has not been done - In Illinois it is allowed for the GM to call such a class but it has been over a decade. The last single candidate "make a Mason at sight" was conducted by the combined grand lines of two states on a grandson of MWPM Harry Truman. In Illinois multiple times per year there are events that do the 2nd and 3rd together in the same day. That oddness might be unique to Illinois.
For a while many incoming brothers wanted less work because they wanted to get to appendent bodies sooner. In the new generation this trend has reversed. They mostly want more value and thus more work.
NZ-Freemason
Registered User
Apologies if this is slightly off topic, but this past week I was present at the Raising of a brother and to my amazement, he was allowed to read the answers to the test questions. When I was passed and raised, showing your proficiency was a key part of the process, if you could not, then you weren't passed or raised. Have any other brethren seen anything like this before?
I was visiting the lodge so I didn't object, but had it been my lodge I most certainly would have objected.
I was visiting the lodge so I didn't object, but had it been my lodge I most certainly would have objected.
Ripcord22A
Site Benefactor
Ive never seen it, but i have heard about it. In Oregon we use a single letter cypher. So if u can read it, but have trouble with memorization(maybe he has a learning disability) then there shouldnt really be an issue if it was discussed prior to his initiation. During my investigation committee meeting i was asked if i have problems with memorization.
Freemasonic Secrets are an allusion. Masonic Secrets are Evasive.
They make even more sense. How much time do you think it takes to do all that is required to bring a youth to manhood? A month? A day?
I have this to say about it: Ya can't sprout hair overnight! And you can't cultivate Maturity going through a play or memorizing its script.
It never existed! Freemasonry's highest degree when it first was created was the 2nd Degree, and that was only given when someone wanted to run a lodge. It was called "The Master's part"; it could only be put on by the GL initially.
The Master's part was put aside at that time and the original apprentice degree was split in two, thus forming two degrees, the current base for the EA and FC. This allowed lodges, rather than the GL, to put on FC degrees so that members could sit in the East as a Master of the Lodge.
The Masters part was put aside only to be added later after the drama was added and available for deliver about 1725-ish; it was not required until years later. Until the split occurred, you were a full member as an Apprentice. No Apprenticeship term was required.
Sure, they are mentioned, but keep in mind what I just shared. Not required initially!
Yes, we are now post change(s) and we are told to call what we do, "speculative", but speculation is not what we do at all. There is nothing we do as an organization that supports speculation.
Which days? Time frame please!
Based upon all evidence, it sounded good and it added to the realism of what was being acted out for the benefit of the paying patrons.
Perhaps, but more likely, it was for effect more than anything else.
Not originally. Remember, initially you were considered a full member if you were an Apprentice.
Food for thought though: Learning a script and related choreography only perfects your skill as an actor and role-player. It neither lays a suitable foundation for Building nor perfects your skill as a Speculative Builder.
Well, if you go along with the premise laid out by Ritual, it takes a long time to both study and learn the seven liberal arts and sciences. Have you done this? How long did it take you?
Your last comments say it best. And if you know what Freemasonry actually is, it all fits together quite nicely. If you don't know, you're likely to get very frustrated making sense of what you are led to believe.
To the best of my knowledge Carl Gustav Jung was not a Freemason, but he is a rather well known as an authority on the human psyche. He once stated that from a psychological point of view the period of a man's youth starts at puberty and continues until about 35 or 40. I found this perspective to be illuminating.
And I see it as a validation of what I have seen in others, read about elsewhere and have experienced myself.
Warrior1256
Site Benefactor
Same here in Kentucky...a minimum of 28 days between degrees.
Which required no waiting time whatsoever!
Warrior1256
Site Benefactor
Same here in Kentucky although we do our proficiency prior to the night of going through the ritual.
hanzosbm
Premium Member
If I remember correctly, and much to that young lady's dismay, it took me about a minute and a half.
If I'm hearing you right, you're saying that there was only one degree initially plus the master of the lodge who received a different degree. That is not what my research has found. Rather, everything I've found indicated that there were apprentices and fellows (two different groups) and then there was the master. Later, the MM degree was added. Speculation is that the original EA degree was split into two and that the original FC degree became the MM degree. The question of course is then what happened to the Master's Part? Has that become the PM ritual? Was it absorbed into the MM ritual? We'll likely never know.
The 7 year requirement goes back to the Regius Poem. I'm unaware of any documentation going back earlier with which we could say that it was not 'initially' required.
Well, at least as late as 1728, maybe later.
That's a pretty bold statement, do you have any evidence to substantiate that?
Well, just as now, that's debatable. "You're a full member, but you can't come to this portion of our meetings". But, even that aside, okay, so was every single word of the apprentice degree learned mouth to ear? I can't recall where, but I remember reading that even after the formation of the Grand Lodge that the substance of the degree was more important and that each lodge was permitted to do the degree however they saw fit provided it taught the lessons.
I disagree. Especially in times where secrecy was necessary. Today, we have books, this forum, and countless other websites from which to study and ponder the various lessons. When you only had your memory from which to pull, it would've been essential to memorize it. How many times on this forum have we discussed intricate factors of the Craft coming down to a few words? Not to mention, if one doesn't have it memorized, how are they supposed to pass it down?
Well, I was fortunate enough to have a background that covered most of them, but still, I am not done. But, as you said, it takes a long time, so why is there no time requirement?
LOL!
Initially...
Apprentices = general member (received the original EA degree -- as in, not split at that time)
Fellows = The guys who run the lodge, as in the master's of the lodges (received the then FC degree - known as the Master's Part)
That Master's part was initially put aside and then reintegrated into the mix with the addition of the Drama. It was not required though for many years but was eventually a required passage for all.
But you are assuming that the Stonecraft document requirements that were used to create the morality plays Freemasonry calls "Ritual" are the same as the requirements for Freemasons. They are not.
In the beginning days, ~1717, you were a full member when you Entered.
The answer is "yes". It's evident in our Work. It's evident in our history.
Debate away my Brother. I'm going off of the word of a historian on these matters as they pertain to 1717 participation. Things changed very rapidly soon there after. They, the PGL guys, hadn't thought things out too well at first, nor did they expect to have as much interest as they did.
Mote point. Full membership was full membership.
You assume the people coming into those halls in 1717 were coming to learn to speculate. They were not. They came to eat, drink, sing, and talk. Entertainment was part of that.
Because these are Morality plays and what they spell out as educational requirements to progress are not supported by the organization that puts them on.
hanzosbm
Premium Member
You're making a lot of statements as fact and then saying 'it's evident'. No, it's not. You're always one to ask people for their references. I know you have this theory about it all being theatre, and that's great. Theories are a wonderful starting point, but eventually you've gotta back them up.
My debate has less to do with historical standing and more to do with ongoing semantics. Can you really be considered a 'full member' if you are excluded from certain aspects? "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others".
Yes, they most certainly were. I have already laid this out that it was a requirement at least as late as 1728.
My debate has less to do with historical standing and more to do with ongoing semantics. Can you really be considered a 'full member' if you are excluded from certain aspects? "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others".
Reference?
Perhaps to you. To me and quite a few others it remains evident. You do not have to see it for it to be evident to others. That is a fact.
The references and arguments have been clearly document and published and are available.
Good. Then you already know that Stonecraft and Freemasonic requirements were not the same.
Thanks for that clarification.
At that time, full members were not excluded from certain aspects. However, if you wanted to run the show, as in be the head of the theater , you needed to be a Fellow. Obviously, this changed very quickly soon thereafter.
Just read Anderson's Constitutions my Brother. It was entertainment which included how that entertainment was to be acted out. That's but one of many.
hanzosbm
Premium Member
So, because you and "quite a few others" believe it, you don't need any references. Got it.
Great! Where?
In terms of years needing to serve as an apprentice, they absolutely were the same, as I have referenced.
I have read Anderson's Constitutions. Have you? There is absolutely nothing in it about entertainment. In fact, there's nothing in it about any rituals whatsoever.
I'm open to new ideas and I'm happy to consider any possible viewpoints, provided that there is some basis for them. However, when I repeatedly ask you for references and the only one you give has nothing to do with the topic, it gets difficult to take it seriously.
Actually, I didn't say we "believe it". I said we see the evidence; and you don't. I hope you got this distinction.
The links to what you desire are hidden in plan sight. There's not much more I can do for you beyond this. It's your rabbit hunt. I got mine.
If you honestly believe that the seven years needed to mature a youth to manhood, requiring him to learn Stonecraft and grow into manhood are the same as the seven years to take a chronological adult and make him wait around memorizing and performing scripts and choreography, then there's not much to discuss.
You look at the number 7 and see 7. I see the number 7 and see what is behind the 7 year requirement. As for me, I see a huge difference in what those seven years require of the two and what each span of time represents. If you see no differences, then what I point out to you won't help you.
Why, yes. A few times in fact. It's quite entertaining for sure, and humorous at points, if you look for it. Not to mention how it tells how the organization needs to be set up to operate, what to say and do when and such.
I see that you absolutely do not see that it was in itself entertainment and how that entertainment was to be acted out. Okay. I understand you don't see it that way. I see it differently.
I don't know why you bring up Ritual (perhaps you thought that this might be the entertainment to which I have been referring). But since you have, when it instructs the members on page 47 to read the charge "during the making of new brethren", that has nothing to do with our ritual? Yours is an interesting way of looking at it...
The fact is, the booklet was a how to manual to set up a role-playing society based upon lore borrowed from Stonecraft guilds and "corrected" and adjusted to suit the needs of the role-playing society. I find that it's quite masterful in its playfulness and it accomplished in grand fashion what it set out to do: Capture the hearts and minds of moral men who wanted more, gave them an outlet to do just that and has done so for near 300 years.
Good. I hope that continues.
If you cannot see it, no matter what I offer you , it shall be dismissed.
Time to move on.
cemab4y
Premium Member
I am enjoying reading the points here. As far as "one-day classes" or ODC's as they are called here; it is true that some states permit the conferral of the Craft degrees in one day. Also, some states permit lodge to confer the degrees on an accelerated schedule for extraordinary circumstances (like a soldier deploying overseas).
In my home state of Kentucky, degree work was done "around the clock" during WW2.
In my home state of Kentucky, degree work was done "around the clock" during WW2.
Warrior1256
Site Benefactor
Are one day classes still allowed here in Kentucky?
More of a second act than a separate play