My Freemasonry | Freemason Information and Discussion Forum

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Traveling

dfreybur

Premium Member
By quorum do you mean African Lodge No. 459B and Hiram Lodge? They were never considered regular by the UGLE

That's the second level needed, yes. The first level was having enough members that the formation of those two lodges by hiving.

Then why did the UGLE deny recognition only six years before the 1994 ruling?

People confuse recognition with regularity all the time. Without digging into the Proceedings of the UGLE we can't know for certain, but it was probably about allowing US jurisdictions work their principle of exclusive jurisdiction.

Just because the UGLE and other Grand Lodges decide to modify and ignore longstanding Standards of Recognition does not mean that other Grand Lodges have to do the same.

This part of the topic has already been much discussed.
 

Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
Yes I understand that, but if Prince Hall is regular then how would that be violating the ob.
Think of Cuba. It meets the requirements for recognition as a nation state, just as PHA meets the requirements of Masonic regularity. However, until recently, U.S. Citizens were (largely) prevented from visiting there.
 

MRichard

Mark A. Ri'chard
Premium Member
Actually, you can

I know Texas was like that for a long time since 2007 I believe. Visitation was just approved in December and it was not well liked by all. That's why I find it funny that some people claim that racism is not an issue at all in states without recognition. It is still an issue here whether some want to admit it or not.
 
Last edited:

LAMason

Premium Member
it was probably about allowing US jurisdictions work their principle of exclusive jurisdiction.

This makes it clear that the UGLE considered Prince Hall Grand Lodges irregular until they modified their Standards of Recognition.

“Furthermore, these two papers (‘Regularity and Recognition’ and a ‘Short History of Prince Hall Masonry’) at last make it clear why the BGP* had had such difficulty over the recognition of any Prince Hall Grand Lodge since the Prince Hall Grand Lodge (‘PHGL’) of Massachusetts first applied for recognition in 1988: by the standard the UGLE had codified in the 1920s the formation in the early 1800s of the PHGL of Massachusetts, from which ‘All Prince Hall Grand Lodges are descended,’ was irregular. It had not been ‘established lawfully by a duly recognized Grand Lodge or by three or more regularly constituted Lodges’ as the first Basic Principle required. Any Grand Lodge that permitted intervisitation with and/or recognized a PHGL – and there were now at least thirty-four such in North America – was therefore permitting association with not only an unrecognized body (in which case the BGP could just have instructed members to exercise due caution when visiting within its jurisdiction) but with an irregular body.”

The UGLE Board of General Purposes BGP manages the Grand Lodges External Affairs

Page 30 UGLE’s External Relations 1950-2000: policy & practice Inaugural Address by Bro James W. Daniel 13 November 2003Transactions of Quatuor Coronati Lodge
 

Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
The best reason - A couple of years ago the MWGM of the MWPHGLofAR issued an edict recognizing all GLofXX that recognize MWPHGLofXX. Since then recognizing MWPHGLofAR is returning a favor already granted.

So I am suggesting that MWPHGLofAR be recognized in spite of lack of local recognition. Then if GLofAR or any other GLofXX pulls recognition for it, laugh at them. It happened before when GLofCT recognized MWPHGLofCT so it should work again.
.....

This really would be problematic with the other CGMNA GLs and the doctrine of ETJ. It could, indeed, start a recognition war. I support the doctrine as a system of governing the fraternity, but it can lead to inappropriate results.
 

Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
What do you want? Florida don't recognize prince hall. Get over it. Worry about bettering yourself and your lodge. Focus on positive and not negative.

Im not worrying about prince hall recognizing me. I don't care.

Wish it wasn't that way but what can i do?

...


Sent from Mossy Oak Swamp Bottom.
You can sponsor legislation in your Grand Lodge to change this. Your Grand Lodge, commendably, over rode the grandmaster in his exclusion of various religious beliefs. It can make this gesture of inclusion as well
 

Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
The only lodge ill sit in is lodges recognized by my home lodge. I abide by all the laws, rules regulations of my grand lodge.


Sent from Mossy Oak Swamp Bottom.
And I'm sure every regular Freemason on this list agrees. That is not the issue. The issue is why a GL does not recognize its PHA counterpart, which now places it in the minority of CGMNA GLs
 

MRichard

Mark A. Ri'chard
Premium Member

Dontrell Stroman

Premium Member
Tired of always hearing and every topic turn into a race thing.


Sent from Mossy Oak Swamp Bottom.

Bro level head, you can't not be that naive to believe that racism doesn't play a major part in why the two don't recognize each other. Example : I have walked up to many GL brothers and seen a ring and asked when do you believe we can all sit together in a lodge as brothers should. Know what the response was.... You have your own lodges and we have ours. Tell me that's not racism or some kind of prejudice.
 

pointwithinacircle2

Rapscallion
Premium Member
Perhaps we are beginning to see the end of racism as a definition. This week in social media I saw the more accurate terms "white racism" and "black racism" were being used. Perhaps our is time we stopped believing that racists are the "other guys" and began defining what we are actually talking about.

I remember the first time someone from another racial background said to me "when I was in high school I couldn't have invited you to my house because my daddy hates white people". I was shocked at first. But I could see in his eyes that he was as saddened and embarrassed by his father's attitude as I was by my father's. all races have a way to travel to correct this problem. Perhaps admitting that is a place to start.
 

Dontrell Stroman

Premium Member
I will say this though, I'm not one to just post this topic on this forum and not try and make a change myself. I have a friend that is a white a guy and he's been asking me for a while if I could help him petition the lodge I'm in. I'm in the process right now of breaking a barrier in my own lodge. Although Prince Hall Masonry allows men from all walks of life regardless of race, it has never happened in my lodge. Not because we don't allow it, but we have never had a white guy want to join our lodge that I know of. There may be some brothers that oppose the idea, but progress will never happen if we don't try.
 

MRichard

Mark A. Ri'chard
Premium Member
I will say this though, I'm not one to just post this topic on this forum and not try and make a change myself. I have a friend that is a white a guy and he's been asking me for a while if I could help him petition the lodge I'm in. I'm in the process right now of breaking a barrier in my own lodge. Although Prince Hall Masonry allows men from all walks of life regardless of race, it has never happened in my lodge. Not because we don't allow it, but we have never had a white guy want to join our lodge that I know of. There may be some brothers that oppose the idea, but progress will never happen if we don't try.

Is it really a barrier if no one has tried yet? A barrier is when men of a certain race petition a lodge and constantly get blackballed. There are white men in Prince Hall lodges.
 

perryel

Registered User
I was initiated, passed, and raised Prince Hall Affiliated in Ohio. There were white members of my PHA lodge, however, I was never invited to sit in fellowship with white Freemasons under the GL of OH. Then I moved to PA where I experienced such harmony between PHA and GL of PA that I was created a noble of AAONMS. I recently moved back to Ohio and attended a shrine event with my family; I was the only black noble in the Temple. I was greeted at the entrance as if I had wondered across the parking lot and were attempting to unlawfully gain access to the Temple. No one ever tried me or requested to see my dues card. The message was clear to me. Black Freemasons in Ohio belong in PHA. My wife was so uncomfortable she asked that we not return to the Temple...ever again. Call racism on both sides if you choose.
 

MRichard

Mark A. Ri'chard
Premium Member
I was initiated, passed, and raised Prince Hall Affiliated in Ohio. There were white members of my PHA lodge, however, I was never invited to sit in fellowship with white Freemasons under the GL of OH. Then I moved to PA where I experienced such harmony between PHA and GL of PA that I was created a noble of AAONMS. I recently moved back to Ohio and attended a shrine event with my family; I was the only black noble in the Temple. I was greeted at the entrance as if I had wondered across the parking lot and were attempting to unlawfully gain access to the Temple. No one ever tried me or requested to see my dues card. The message was clear to me. Black Freemasons in Ohio belong in PHA. My wife was so uncomfortable she asked that we not return to the Temple...ever again. Call racism on both sides if you choose.

That is unfortunate. I recently joined the Shrine at the Imperial Session in Houston. The person who mentored me was a Shriner and he would often ask me to come to the meetings. He asked me to go to some of the Shrine events when I was just an EA. I did have concerns but he assured me it wouldn't be an issue. I was somewhat uncomfortable at the first event but everyone was nice. So I kept going to their monthly meetings until I got raised. It is not even an issue anymore. I had to get out of my comfort zone though. My only problem now is that the building is so far away from where I live.

I was impressed that they have always made me feel welcome.
 

perryel

Registered User
That is unfortunate. I recently joined the Shrine at the Imperial Session in Houston. The person who mentored me was a Shriner and he would often ask me to come to the meetings. He asked me to go to some of the Shrine events when I was just an EA. I did have concerns but he assured me it wouldn't be an issue. I was somewhat uncomfortable at the first event but everyone was nice. So I kept going to their monthly meetings until I got raised. It is not even an issue anymore. I had to get out of my comfort zone though. My only problem now is that the building is so far away from where I live.

I was impressed that they have always made me feel welcome.


Good news for you...I miss traveling in Pennsylvania. Each lodge, grand lodge, affiliation has its own culture. Harmony should be the strength and support of all institutions...especially ours. S&F
 
Top