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MRichard

Mark A. Ri'chard
Premium Member
Note that it says "could have" and not "would have". The fact that the Grand Lodge of Massachusetts declined to recognize them proves that they were not considered regular "By standards then prevailing".

Recognition and regularity are two separate things. It is obvious to almost everyone why they were not recognized, had very little to do with regularity. Why there was even a need for another grand lodge! Prince Hall was initiated in a regular and recognized lodge, yet there was not a lodge that he could visit.
 

LAMason

Premium Member
Recognition and regularity are two separate things.

Yes, but recognition is contingent upon regularity.

Prince Hall was initiated in a regular and recognized lodge

I have never said that Prince Hall was not initiated in a regular and recognized lodge, but that does not mean that a regular and recognized lodge cannot become irregular and unrecognized because of subsequent actions taken.

I also have never said that Prince Hall and others did not/do not believe that his actions were justified.

I also am not so naïve as to believe that some individuals do not oppose recognition because of racism, but I also believe that it is unfair to paint everyone that opposes recognition with the brush of racism. Emotionalism aside, the historical evidence strongly supports the position that the formation of the lodges chartered without authority by African Lodge #459 and the formation of African Grand Lodge were in fact considered irregular by “prevailing standards”. The fact that the UGLE and other Grand Lodges have chosen to ignore long established Standards of Recognition does not erase that fact.

I respect the decision of the Grand Lodges that have decided to recognize Prince Hall, but I also believe that other Grand Lodges are justified in not ignoring those Standards.

This excerpt from Proceedings of the Grand Lodge of Massachusetts, From March 9 to December 17, 1870 provides a contemporaneous account of the question of the regularity of African Grand Lodge which is over 120 years closer in time to the matter than the 1992 UGLE Statement. It makes it clear that Prince Hall was considered irregular and explains why.:

Without any other authority than that contained in the Warrant for said Lodge, Prince Hall, the Iater thereof, it is said, on the 22d of March, 1797, granted a Dispensation, preliminary to a Warrant, to certain persons in Philadelphia. Soon afterwards, Prince Hall established Lodge at Providence, R.I. African Lodge, of Boston, continued to act as a subordinate Lodge until 1808, when, ,with the assistance of the Lodges at Philadelphia and Providence, established as above stated, it organized a Grand Lodge, at Boston, which Body granted Charters to several subordinates, not only in Massachusetts, but in several other States.

In June, 1827, the African Lodge declared its independence, and published its Declaration in one of the newspapers printed at Boston.

It is unnecessary to argue the masonic and legitimate effect of this Declaration. It was a surrender of their Charter, and a public declaration that from thenceforth they ceased to act under it, or to recognize its validity or the authority from "whence it was derived. If the "African Lodge" had any existence at this time, by force of this Declaration its existence came to an end. In 1847, a National Grand Lodge was formed; and, says the petition of Lewis HIayden and others to this Grand Lodge, set out on page 132 of our printed Proceedings for 1869: "the African Lodge of Boston, becoming a part of that Body, surrendered its Charter, and received its present Charter, dated December 11, 1847, under the title of Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Free and Accepted Masons for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, and by ,which authority we this day exist as a Masonic Body."

Under the direction of Prince Hall the Lodge prospered, but after his death, which occurred Dec. 4, 1807, it became dormant, and ceased to have any actual existence. In 1813, upon the union of the Grand Lodges of England, African Lodge, which had been registered a8 No. 459 and as 370, "Was removed from the list and was never after recognized by the United Grand Lodge. The Declaration of 1821, complains that the members of African Lodge could open no correspondence with the Grand Lodge ofEngland, and that their communications and advances were treated with the most studied neglect.

Boyer Lodge. No.1, was organized at New York City by the African Lodge or the Prince Hall Grand Lodge. The members of this Lodge applied to the Grand Lodge of New York for recognition in 1812, 1829, and again in 1845. Grand Secretary James Herring made a report - in 1846 which contains a letter from our Brother, Charles W. Moore, Grand Secretary, which throws some light upon the condition of the African Lodge in Boston at this time.


Why this Charter was granted without the consent of the Lodges in Massachusetts, and without any correspondence concerning the propriety of the step, is a question "which can be answered by every American who remembers the bitter hostility existing in England at that date towards the successful rebels against the crown of Great Britain. This Charter, in common form, conferring no extraordinary powers upon tbe petitioners, anthorizing them to hold a Lodge, enter, pass, and raise Masons, and no more, was undoubtedly granted by the Grand Master of England, and under it the petitioners commenced Work. The successors or the persons named in that Charter, have magnified the powers granted by it, have construed it to confer upon them Grand Lodge powers, have set up by virtue of it Grand Lodges, and finally a national Grand Lodge, with subordinate State Grand Lodges, and have established an "American doctrine of Grand Lodge jurisdiction" peculiar to themselves, distinct and separate from any other Grand Lodge government known to man. Their National Grand Body" claims and exercises masonic authority over these United States, with full power and authority to settle all masonic difficulties that may arise among the Grand Lodges of these States." The original Charter, granted September 29, 1784, under which the successors of the persons named therein have claimed to act from April, 1787, to the year 1847·, and which was the only plausible authority by which they could hope to be justified in their proceedings, was not only surrendered by operation of
masonic law, June 18, 1827, by reason of the Declaration then made, but on the 11th of December, 1847, was actually in set form of words, and with premeditation, abandoned and surrendered, and if they now possess the parchment upon which it was written, it is kept only as a curious relic of the past, emasculated of its virility.


With a National Grand Lodge, State Grand Lodges, and subordinate Lodges, they have so complicated the primitive difficulty, that it will not be easy for them to escape from the triple bonds with which they have bound themselves, although many of them may be dissatisfied, some with their form of government, and slome with their associates.

This is simply a question or Grand Lodge jurisdiction, a question which was settled and determined by this Grand Lodge, September 17, 1797, when it incorporated into its Constitutions this Section :-

“The Grand Lodge will not hold communication with, or admit admit as visitiors,any Masons, residing in this State, who hold authority under, and acknowledge the supremacy of any foreign Grand Lodge."

This provision, in some form of language, has existed in our Constitutions from 1797 to this day. It now stands in the following form: "No Lodge of Ancient, Free, and Accepted Masons can legally assemble in this Commonwealth under a Warrant granted by any foreign masonic power."

This is, as I have said, simply a question.of Grand Lodge jurisdiction, and we can consider it calmly and without prejudice.

The Institution of Freemasonry is universal. It stretches from East to West, from North to South, and embraces within itself the representatives of every branch of the human family. Its carefully-tyled doors swing open, not at the knock of every man, but at the demand of every true and worthy man, duly accepted, whatever his religion, his race, or his country may be. This Grand Lodge stands upon the high vantage ground of this catholic society, and recognizes the great principles which must necessarily underlie an Institution which has a home on the continents and on the islands of the seas. When that celebrated play of Terence, styled the "Self-Tormentor," was first introduced upon the Roman stage, before the great amphitheatre crowded ,with senators, knights, citizens, and men of rank, some of whom have been found worthy of a Roman triumph, and Chremes, in his reply to Menedemus, repeated the words,-

“Homo sum; humani nihil a me alienum puto,"
“ I am a man; nothing which relates to man is alien to me,"


the vast assemblage rose up, impelled by a common sentiment, and rent the air with reiterated plaudits. The memory of that scene has not yet faded away. The words of Chremes has not yet ceased to reverberate. We bear upon the Masons' arms of Massachusetts, and have inscribed upon our Grand Lodge banner, the motto, -

"Humani nibil alienum."
“Man everywhere our brother."

Proceedings of the Grand Lodge of Massachusetts, From March 9 to December 17, 1870, Pages 35-38.


Also, keep in mind that only 6 years prior to the 1992 in 1986 UGLE Statement , the UGLE considered Prince Hall not only unrecognized but irregular and denied recognition.

This makes it clear that the UGLE considered Prince Hall Grand Lodges irregular until they modified their Standards of Recognition.

“Furthermore, these two papers (‘Regularity and Recognition’ and a ‘Short History of Prince Hall Masonry’) at last make it clear why the BGP* had had such difficulty over the recognition of any Prince Hall Grand Lodge since the Prince Hall Grand Lodge (‘PHGL’) of Massachusetts first applied for recognition in 1988: by the standard the UGLE had codified in the 1920s the formation in the early 1800s of the PHGL of Massachusetts, from which ‘All Prince Hall Grand Lodges are descended,’ was irregular. It had not been ‘established lawfully by a duly recognized Grand Lodge or by three or more regularly constituted Lodges’ as the first Basic Principle required. Any Grand Lodge that permitted intervisitation with and/or recognized a PHGL – and there were now at least thirty-four such in North America – was therefore permitting association with not only an unrecognized body (in which case the BGP could just have instructed members to exercise due caution when visiting within its jurisdiction) but with an irregular body.”

The UGLE Board of General Purposes BGP manages the Grand Lodges External Affairs

Page 30 UGLE’s External Relations 1950-2000: policy & practice Inaugural Address by Bro James W. Daniel 13 November 2003Transactions of Quatuor Coronati Lodge
 

MRichard

Mark A. Ri'chard
Premium Member
One of the landmarks of masonry is the right of every mason to visit and sit in every regular lodge. How do you feel about that?
 

perryel

Registered User
Yes, but recognition is contingent upon regularity.



I have never said that Prince Hall was not initiated in a regular and recognized lodge, but that does not mean that a regular and recognized lodge cannot become irregular and unrecognized because of subsequent actions taken.

I also have never said that Prince Hall and others did not/do not believe that his actions were justified.

I also am not so naïve as to believe that some individuals do not oppose recognition because of racism, but I also believe that it is unfair to paint everyone that opposes recognition with the brush of racism. Emotionalism aside, the historical evidence strongly supports the position that the formation of the lodges chartered without authority by African Lodge #459 and the formation of African Grand Lodge were in fact considered irregular by “prevailing standards”. The fact that the UGLE and other Grand Lodges have chosen to ignore long established Standards of Recognition does not erase that fact.

I respect the decision of the Grand Lodges that have decided to recognize Prince Hall, but I also believe that other Grand Lodges are justified in not ignoring those Standards.

This excerpt from Proceedings of the Grand Lodge of Massachusetts, From March 9 to December 17, 1870 provides a contemporaneous account of the question of the regularity of African Grand Lodge which is over 120 years closer in time to the matter than the 1992 UGLE Statement. It makes it clear that Prince Hall was considered irregular and explains why.:

Without any other authority than that contained in the Warrant for said Lodge, Prince Hall, the Iater thereof, it is said, on the 22d of March, 1797, granted a Dispensation, preliminary to a Warrant, to certain persons in Philadelphia. Soon afterwards, Prince Hall established Lodge at Providence, R.I. African Lodge, of Boston, continued to act as a subordinate Lodge until 1808, when, ,with the assistance of the Lodges at Philadelphia and Providence, established as above stated, it organized a Grand Lodge, at Boston, which Body granted Charters to several subordinates, not only in Massachusetts, but in several other States.

In June, 1827, the African Lodge declared its independence, and published its Declaration in one of the newspapers printed at Boston.

It is unnecessary to argue the masonic and legitimate effect of this Declaration. It was a surrender of their Charter, and a public declaration that from thenceforth they ceased to act under it, or to recognize its validity or the authority from "whence it was derived. If the "African Lodge" had any existence at this time, by force of this Declaration its existence came to an end. In 1847, a National Grand Lodge was formed; and, says the petition of Lewis HIayden and others to this Grand Lodge, set out on page 132 of our printed Proceedings for 1869: "the African Lodge of Boston, becoming a part of that Body, surrendered its Charter, and received its present Charter, dated December 11, 1847, under the title of Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Free and Accepted Masons for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, and by ,which authority we this day exist as a Masonic Body."

Under the direction of Prince Hall the Lodge prospered, but after his death, which occurred Dec. 4, 1807, it became dormant, and ceased to have any actual existence. In 1813, upon the union of the Grand Lodges of England, African Lodge, which had been registered a8 No. 459 and as 370, "Was removed from the list and was never after recognized by the United Grand Lodge. The Declaration of 1821, complains that the members of African Lodge could open no correspondence with the Grand Lodge ofEngland, and that their communications and advances were treated with the most studied neglect.

Boyer Lodge. No.1, was organized at New York City by the African Lodge or the Prince Hall Grand Lodge. The members of this Lodge applied to the Grand Lodge of New York for recognition in 1812, 1829, and again in 1845. Grand Secretary James Herring made a report - in 1846 which contains a letter from our Brother, Charles W. Moore, Grand Secretary, which throws some light upon the condition of the African Lodge in Boston at this time.


Why this Charter was granted without the consent of the Lodges in Massachusetts, and without any correspondence concerning the propriety of the step, is a question "which can be answered by every American who remembers the bitter hostility existing in England at that date towards the successful rebels against the crown of Great Britain. This Charter, in common form, conferring no extraordinary powers upon tbe petitioners, anthorizing them to hold a Lodge, enter, pass, and raise Masons, and no more, was undoubtedly granted by the Grand Master of England, and under it the petitioners commenced Work. The successors or the persons named in that Charter, have magnified the powers granted by it, have construed it to confer upon them Grand Lodge powers, have set up by virtue of it Grand Lodges, and finally a national Grand Lodge, with subordinate State Grand Lodges, and have established an "American doctrine of Grand Lodge jurisdiction" peculiar to themselves, distinct and separate from any other Grand Lodge government known to man. Their National Grand Body" claims and exercises masonic authority over these United States, with full power and authority to settle all masonic difficulties that may arise among the Grand Lodges of these States." The original Charter, granted September 29, 1784, under which the successors of the persons named therein have claimed to act from April, 1787, to the year 1847·, and which was the only plausible authority by which they could hope to be justified in their proceedings, was not only surrendered by operation of
masonic law, June 18, 1827, by reason of the Declaration then made, but on the 11th of December, 1847, was actually in set form of words, and with premeditation, abandoned and surrendered, and if they now possess the parchment upon which it was written, it is kept only as a curious relic of the past, emasculated of its virility.


With a National Grand Lodge, State Grand Lodges, and subordinate Lodges, they have so complicated the primitive difficulty, that it will not be easy for them to escape from the triple bonds with which they have bound themselves, although many of them may be dissatisfied, some with their form of government, and slome with their associates.

This is simply a question or Grand Lodge jurisdiction, a question which was settled and determined by this Grand Lodge, September 17, 1797, when it incorporated into its Constitutions this Section :-

“The Grand Lodge will not hold communication with, or admit admit as visitiors,any Masons, residing in this State, who hold authority under, and acknowledge the supremacy of any foreign Grand Lodge."

This provision, in some form of language, has existed in our Constitutions from 1797 to this day. It now stands in the following form: "No Lodge of Ancient, Free, and Accepted Masons can legally assemble in this Commonwealth under a Warrant granted by any foreign masonic power."

This is, as I have said, simply a question.of Grand Lodge jurisdiction, and we can consider it calmly and without prejudice.

The Institution of Freemasonry is universal. It stretches from East to West, from North to South, and embraces within itself the representatives of every branch of the human family. Its carefully-tyled doors swing open, not at the knock of every man, but at the demand of every true and worthy man, duly accepted, whatever his religion, his race, or his country may be. This Grand Lodge stands upon the high vantage ground of this catholic society, and recognizes the great principles which must necessarily underlie an Institution which has a home on the continents and on the islands of the seas. When that celebrated play of Terence, styled the "Self-Tormentor," was first introduced upon the Roman stage, before the great amphitheatre crowded ,with senators, knights, citizens, and men of rank, some of whom have been found worthy of a Roman triumph, and Chremes, in his reply to Menedemus, repeated the words,-

“Homo sum; humani nihil a me alienum puto,"
“ I am a man; nothing which relates to man is alien to me,"


the vast assemblage rose up, impelled by a common sentiment, and rent the air with reiterated plaudits. The memory of that scene has not yet faded away. The words of Chremes has not yet ceased to reverberate. We bear upon the Masons' arms of Massachusetts, and have inscribed upon our Grand Lodge banner, the motto, -

"Humani nibil alienum."
“Man everywhere our brother."

Proceedings of the Grand Lodge of Massachusetts, From March 9 to December 17, 1870, Pages 35-38.


Also, keep in mind that only 6 years prior to the 1992 in 1986 UGLE Statement , the UGLE considered Prince Hall not only unrecognized but irregular and denied recognition.

I'm still unsure re: your position here. Is it, simply, that PHA was at one time considered irregular, and despite the fact that it is no longer considered irregular, shall forever be subject to questions re: regularity based on this historical artifact?

That's like saying the U.S. Constitution was written in a manner that considered slaves to be equivalent to 3/5 of a person in determining congressional representation. Therefore, former slaves and their descendants shall forever be limited in their exercise of the rights and privileges of U.S. citizenship (and, before this gets attacked as invoking race let's be clear that the largest legal form of slavery in the world is the U.S. system of mass incarceration. The potential impact here cuts across every demographic.)

"...All people seek the temple where God dwells, where the great Truth illuminates the shadows of human ignorance, but they know not which way to turn nor where the temple is. The mist of dogma surrounds them. Aged of thoughtlessness bind them in. Limitation weakens them and retards their footsteps. They wonder in darkness seeking light, failing to realize that the Light is in the heart of the darkness. To the few who have found him, God is revealed. These, in turn, reveal Him to man, striving to tell ignorance the message of wisdom. But seldom does man understand the mystery that has been unveiled..."

V.I.T.R.I.O.L.
 

LAMason

Premium Member
the fact that it is no longer considered irregular

Not all Grand Lodges consider PH to be regular. The fact that some Grand Lodges have chosen to ignore long standing Standards of Recognition in order to grant recognition to PH has no binding effect on other Grand Lodges that choose to continue to follow the Standards of Recognition. Each Grand Lodge is sovereign.

"We continue to be of the opinion that establishment of fraternal relationships with Prince Hall Grand Lodges remains the prerogative of each individual Grand Lodge." http://www.recognitioncommission.org/publish/2006/03/28/2006-commission-report/index.html

"If a Grand Lodge seeks recognition from England, and in due course is recognised, the mutual recognition between it and England cannot bind a third Grand Lodge." http://bessel.org/masrec/phaugle.htm
 

MRichard

Mark A. Ri'chard
Premium Member
Not all Grand Lodges consider PH to be regular. The fact that some Grand Lodges have chosen to ignore long standing Standards of Recognition in order to grant recognition to PH has no binding effect on other Grand Lodges that choose to continue to follow the Standards of Recognition. Each Grand Lodge is sovereign.

"We continue to be of the opinion that establishment of fraternal relationships with Prince Hall Grand Lodges remains the prerogative of each individual Grand Lodge." http://www.recognitioncommission.org/publish/2006/03/28/2006-commission-report/index.html

"If a Grand Lodge seeks recognition from England, and in due course is recognised, the mutual recognition between it and England cannot bind a third Grand Lodge." http://bessel.org/masrec/phaugle.htm

You tend to quote selective items but leave out the important details. This is the whole statement:

A letter has been received from the Prince Hall Conference of Grand Masters requesting:

That all Prince Hall Grand Lodges be declared regular by the Conference of Grand Masters of North America, and That the policy of Exclusive Territorial Jurisdiction be clearly defined so that universal Masonry can prevail while keeping the Brotherhood Man through the Fatherhood of God; a viable cause for Freemasonry as a whole.

It has become generally accepted that Prince Hall Freemasonry is regular in form and practice. The Prince Hall Grand Lodges derive their origin from African Lodge No. 459, which received a charter from the United Grand Lodge of England in 1784. There are approximately 40 member Grand Lodges of the Conference of Grand Masters of North America that have established a fraternal relationship with one or more Prince Hall Grand Lodges. Therefore, the question of regularity does not seem to be an issue any longer. A current list and addresses of the member Grand Lodges of the Prince Hall Conference of Grand Masters is being requested, and will be posted on the Commission website as soon as it is received.

The issue of Exclusive Territorial Jurisdiction is one of the standards for recognition that has been strictly observed by this Conference. It is held that only one legitimate Grand Lodge will be recognized in a particular state or country, unless by treaty or mutual consent two Grand Lodges agree to share the same jurisdiction. This is the mechanism by which our Grand Lodges have established a fraternal relationship with Prince Hall Grand Lodges. The terms of such an agreement are usually negotiated and ratified by the two Grand Lodges in question and no change in that process is recommended.

We continue to be of the opinion that establishment of fraternal relationships with Prince Hall Grand Lodges remains the prerogative of each individual Grand Lodge.
 

LAMason

Premium Member
One of the landmarks of masonry is the right of every mason to visit and sit in every regular lodge. How do you feel about that?

You are referring to Mackey’s Landmarks of Freemasonry #14, but there is no universally accepted list of Landmarks.

"Today, Albert Mackey’s Landmarks of Freemasonry are not universally accepted; they are not really landmarks at all. For example, No. 2, the three degrees of Craft Freemasonry aren't a landmark. The Third Degree didn't exist at the time of the formation of the first Grand Lodge in England. No. 3, the Master Mason Degree legend isn't unchanged as the oldest legends concern Noah, not Hiram Abiff. The five points of fellowship appear in ritual first in 1726, not at the time of founding in 1717. No. 4, there was no grand master in 1717 either. No’s. 5, 6, 7 and 8 are privileges vested in the Grand Master by the Grand Lodge. No. 9 is interesting as operative masons seemed to have the right to congregate for lodge purposes anytime five or six came together. No. 10, there was a time when the lodge was governed by the master and one Warden. No. 14 is noteworthy since in some jurisdictions, visiting is considered a privilege. No. 20, regarding resurrection, raises theological questions which some jurisdictions feel unqualified to address. And so on. "
http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/texts/landmarks.html

The UGLE lists:
c. adhere to 'landmarks' (a landmark is an essential characteristic of regular Freemasonry), viz:
(I) its Brethren must believe in a Supreme Being (the GAOTU);
(ii) Obligations must be taken on or in full view of the VSL;
(iii) it must display the three Great Lights of Freemasonry when it or its Lodges are open;
(iv) discussion of religion and politics in its Lodges must be prohibited, and
(v) its membership must be male, and it must have nothing to do with mixed or women's Lodges.
http://bessel.org/masrec/phaugle.htm

The Conference of Grand Masters of North America (CGMNA) lists:
Adherence to the Ancient Landmarks � specifically, a Belief in God, the Volume of Sacred Law as an indispensable part of the Furniture of the Lodge, and the prohibition of the discussion of politics and religion.
http://www.recognitioncommission.org/publish/2004/06/10/the-standards-of-recognition/
 

MRichard

Mark A. Ri'chard
Premium Member
"generally accepted" is not "universally accepted". It is up to each Grand Lodge to make that determination.

I am aware what it means. You used selected text to make a point that PHA was not regular. The source you cited states otherwise. Your source.
 

LAMason

Premium Member
There are approximately 40 member Grand Lodges of the Conference of Grand Masters of North America that have established a fraternal relationship with one or more Prince Hall Grand Lodges. Therefore, the question of regularity does not seem to be an issue any longer.

It states that "the question of regularity does not seem to be an issue any longer" however the fact is that the "question of regularity" is still an issue with some Grand Lodges. The point I was making was if my Grand Lodge says it is regular, it is regular for me, if your Grand Lodge says it is regular, it is regular for you, and they are not always the same, and the CGMNA and the UGLE both acknowledge that it is the right of each Grand Lodge to make that determination.

As I said previously I respect the decision made by the Grand Lodges that recognize PH, they feel that the right thing to do is recognize PH in effect healing them for their jurisdiction. But the fact remains that the formation of African Grand Lodge/Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Massachusetts "was irregular" and was considered irregular "by standards then prevailing" (as shown by the excerpt from 1870 Proceedings of The Grand Lodge of Massachusetts) , and other Grand Lodges are entirely justified to consider that. You are entitled to your opinion, but I also am entitled to mine. My opinion is not a knee jerk reaction to the question based on what I have read in online forums and blogs, but is the result of much research.
 

MRichard

Mark A. Ri'chard
Premium Member
Did racism factor into that equation? Yes or no. (Regarding the formation of the Prince Hall grand lodge).
 

MRichard

Mark A. Ri'chard
Premium Member
There is no accepted list of landmarks; my mother GL specifically states it is not a right.

That's a little odd. I have seen several masonic entities mention the ancient landmarks but there are no accepted landmarks still in use. Learn something new everyday.
 

LAMason

Premium Member
Did racism factor into that equation? Yes or no. (Regarding the formation of the Prince Hall grand lodge).

Possibly.

Did the Grand Lodge of Massachusetts consider Prince Hall Grand Lodge irregular in 1870 because of racism? I do not think so. They detailed their reasons and ended with:

“This is, as I have said, simply a question of Grand Lodge jurisdiction, and we can consider it calmly and without prejudice.

The Institution of Freemasonry is universal. It stretches from East to West, from North to South, and embraces within itself the representatives of every branch of the human family. Its carefully-tyled doors swing open, not at the knock of every man, but at the demand of every true and worthy man, duly accepted, whatever his religion, his race, or his country may be.”

Did the UGLE consider the Warrant of African Lodge #459 invalid and Prince Hall Grand Lodge not to be regular in 1868 because of racism? I doubt it since the Grand Lodge of England had issued the Warrant to African Lodge #459.

Letter from John Hervey, Grand Secretary of the United Grand Lodge of England, 11th November, 1868:

“DEAR SIR AND R.W. BROTHER,-I am in receipt of your favor of the 20th ult." making enquiries respecting a Warrant granted in 1784, to a certain "Prince Hall." I have caused a most diligent search to be made in our book here, …

It is quite clear that the Lodge referred to is not working under the English Constitutions, and that the parties holding the Warrant can have no right to it, and are not a regular Lodge, unless empowered to meet under your Constitutions.”

Was African Lodge #459 a regular lodge at the time its Warrant was issued? Yes.

Did African Lodge #459 cease to operate as a regular lodge in 1797 when it began issuing Warrants for other lodges without authority? Yes.

Are PH Grand Lodges regular in practice? Yes.

Are PH Grand Lodges regular in origin? No.

Can a legitimate case for recognition of Prince Hall Grand Lodges be made based on historical racism? Yes.

Can a legitimate case for not recognizing Prince Hall Grand Lodges be based on historical facts? Yes.
 

MRichard

Mark A. Ri'chard
Premium Member
Possibly.

Did the Grand Lodge of Massachusetts consider Prince Hall Grand Lodge irregular in 1870 because of racism? I do not think so. They detailed their reasons and ended with:

“This is, as I have said, simply a question of Grand Lodge jurisdiction, and we can consider it calmly and without prejudice.

The Institution of Freemasonry is universal. It stretches from East to West, from North to South, and embraces within itself the representatives of every branch of the human family. Its carefully-tyled doors swing open, not at the knock of every man, but at the demand of every true and worthy man, duly accepted, whatever his religion, his race, or his country may be.”

Did the UGLE consider the Warrant of African Lodge #459 invalid and Prince Hall Grand Lodge not to be regular in 1868 because of racism? I doubt it since the Grand Lodge of England had issued the Warrant to African Lodge #459.

Letter from John Hervey, Grand Secretary of the United Grand Lodge of England, 11th November, 1868:

“DEAR SIR AND R.W. BROTHER,-I am in receipt of your favor of the 20th ult." making enquiries respecting a Warrant granted in 1784, to a certain "Prince Hall." I have caused a most diligent search to be made in our book here, …

It is quite clear that the Lodge referred to is not working under the English Constitutions, and that the parties holding the Warrant can have no right to it, and are not a regular Lodge, unless empowered to meet under your Constitutions.”

Was African Lodge #459 a regular lodge at the time its Warrant was issued? Yes.

Did African Lodge #459 cease to operate as a regular lodge in 1797 when it began issuing Warrants for other lodges without authority? Yes.

Are PH Grand Lodges regular in practice? Yes.

Are PH Grand Lodges regular in origin? No.

Can a legitimate case for recognition of Prince Hall Grand Lodges be made based on historical racism? Yes.

Can a legitimate case for not recognizing Prince Hall Grand Lodges be based on historical facts? Yes.

Why do you think he and the other men he was initiated with couldn't visit any US lodges? It was only possible that racism was an issue? Really.

I won't argue this point any further as it is clear that your mind is closed on this issue.
 

BroBook

Premium Member
I asked this in another thread, although I understand, and respect the idea of being regular, and recognized, but here is the question " Who gave the brothers that met at the tavern the Authority to form a Grand Lodge and issue anything"?
 

dfreybur

Premium Member
I asked this in another thread, although I understand, and respect the idea of being regular, and recognized, but here is the question " Who gave the brothers that met at the tavern the Authority to form a Grand Lodge and issue anything"?

They took the authority themselves. Every chicken has to have an egg.

Shortly after Scotland and Ireland formed their own on their own authority and then also the Antients.

At some point the community said that was enough and they started lineage from then on. Fair? It is if you are in a regular lineage. It is not if you are in a clandestine lineage. This is why I tend to point out that clandestine lodges tend to be forces for good in their communities and that most members have no idea.
 

Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
I asked this in another thread, although I understand, and respect the idea of being regular, and recognized, but here is the question " Who gave the brothers that met at the tavern the Authority to form a Grand Lodge and issue anything"?
The same people that give three regular lodges the power to form a GL today in an open jurisdiction: the three regular Lodges.

Edited lodges vice grand lodges
 
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