My Freemasonry | Freemason Information and Discussion Forum

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Are Grand Officers paid ?

Pscyclepath

Premium Member
I've often wondered if GL officers are being paid. Since I have been a master mason, dues continue to go and so does Grand Lodge tax. What about in your jurisdiction, do you brothers know if they are being paid ?

It depends on the jurisdiction. The Grand Lodges do prepare and abide by an annual budget, which is presented and approved at the annual convocations.

Here in Arkansas, the GL has three paid employees, the Grand Secretary, and two assistants. These fellows run the GL office on a day-to-day basis and take care of business in between annual meetings. The Grand Line meets at least monthly, and the GM keeps some sort of at least semi-regular office hours, depending on his availability. The three office workers receive a salary, and the GM has a limited travel budget to enable him to get out and about and be present in the subordinate lodges. But for the most part, GL officer travel and work is unpaid.

The majority of the GL budget is taken in keeping the GL offices open. There's utility bills, phone bills, printing and publication costs, insurance, building upkeep, and all sorts of other ongoing fees. None of these are getting any cheaper. Have you ever taken part in developing and keeping a lodge budget for the year? The same sort of thing goes on at GL, on a larger scale.
 

Dontrell Stroman

Premium Member
It depends on the jurisdiction. The Grand Lodges do prepare and abide by an annual budget, which is presented and approved at the annual convocations.

Here in Arkansas, the GL has three paid employees, the Grand Secretary, and two assistants. These fellows run the GL office on a day-to-day basis and take care of business in between annual meetings. The Grand Line meets at least monthly, and the GM keeps some sort of at least semi-regular office hours, depending on his availability. The three office workers receive a salary, and the GM has a limited travel budget to enable him to get out and about and be present in the subordinate lodges. But for the most part, GL officer travel and work is unpaid.

The majority of the GL budget is taken in keeping the GL offices open. There's utility bills, phone bills, printing and publication costs, insurance, building upkeep, and all sorts of other ongoing fees. None of these are getting any cheaper. Have you ever taken part in developing and keeping a lodge budget for the year? The same sort of thing goes on at GL, on a larger scale.
Yes, I'm very familiar with the budget in a subordinate lodge. I have had to fill in for our treasurer before.
 

Dontrell Stroman

Premium Member
It depends on the jurisdiction. The Grand Lodges do prepare and abide by an annual budget, which is presented and approved at the annual convocations.

Here in Arkansas, the GL has three paid employees, the Grand Secretary, and two assistants. These fellows run the GL office on a day-to-day basis and take care of business in between annual meetings. The Grand Line meets at least monthly, and the GM keeps some sort of at least semi-regular office hours, depending on his availability. The three office workers receive a salary, and the GM has a limited travel budget to enable him to get out and about and be present in the subordinate lodges. But for the most part, GL officer travel and work is unpaid.

The majority of the GL budget is taken in keeping the GL offices open. There's utility bills, phone bills, printing and publication costs, insurance, building upkeep, and all sorts of other ongoing fees. None of these are getting any cheaper. Have you ever taken part in developing and keeping a lodge budget for the year? The same sort of thing goes on at GL, on a larger scale.
I know someone has to run the GL office, but I've always wondered who all is getting paid. If more than just the few you named are being paid then I could surly see them raising the taxes....
 

Warrior1256

Site Benefactor
If...
1) they are performing a service to the craft,
2) for the benefit of the organization,
3) and for a service that would receive the same amount that an individual who was not a member providing the very same service would receive...
why not?
Totally agree. At the very least the expenses incurred while doing the business of the GL should be covered.
 

chrmc

Registered User
Okay you said are not expenses going up ? Then you said, are not membership going down ? Okay if they lowered the taxes in some Grand lodges that they continue to raise them in, would not more good men be able to afford to join?

I believe this is a fallacy we often see. There is little evidence to support that if we lowered dues that we'd have more members. Both when you look at jurisdictions where they've tried it, but also in the general lodges that already have very low dues. They aren't booming with members.

What you however do have ample evidence of is the fact that Masonry to a large extent has failed to keep up with inflation, both in general, but certainly if you compared how much it used to cost out of a man's total income.
We also have ample evidence that presently many lodges and GL does not have enough income to support their business. Both because of small membership, but certainly because of endowments which were a great idea when returns were 10-20%, but not so good when they are 0-5%

We can start the whole debate (again) on why members aren't joining, but blaming it on dues have little supporting evidence.
 

mrpierce17

KOP Council director / Lodge instructor
Premium Member
I've often wondered if GL officers are being paid. Since I have been a master mason, dues continue to go and so does Grand Lodge tax. What about in your jurisdiction, do you brothers know if they are being paid ?
In some jurisdictions GL officers such as the DDGM coming to observe degree work will be given an assessment by the local lodge to help towards his travel expenses not very much and chances are he will still have to come out of pocket
 

Warrior1256

Site Benefactor
We can start the whole debate (again) on why members aren't joining, but blaming it on dues have little supporting evidence.
From what I have seen I have to agree. Membership dues around here are very low and we still have problem attracting / retaining members.
 

dfreybur

Premium Member
Grand lodge budgets contain a lot more expenses than paying people. The educational and charitable programs are the majority of the expense. You should read the annual proceedings of some grand lodges to see where the money goes. I've got a bunch on paper and a whole directory full of PDF files of these books gathered over the years.

Both dues and GL per capita have long fallen behind inflation.

In Illinois the Assistant Grand Secretary draws a salary from the GL plus from the Grand YR Chapter plus another appendent body. Taken together her gets less than half what he'd get working the same job at a typical company, yet he is full time at the GL office. Same with the Grand Secretary. The GM only gets mileage reimbursement at a rate that's lower than the actual cost. Going through the grand line in Illinois typically wears out a car for the years of the early chairs, wears out another car the years in the GDGM and GSW chairs, wears out a car in the two years as GM, wears out a car in the first few years as PM. It takes buying four cars to do all of the travel and that doesn't even include the gas, repairs, hotel stays and so on. Guys who go through the grand line in Illinois are typically out of pocket in the range of $50K just for the two years as GM and at least that much for their other years in the grand line. Travel reimbursements do not approach break even.

In California to even apply to join the grand line you used to have to deposit $50K earnest money to prove you could afford it. And only candidates who had left that money in the account for multiple years ever got considered. Grand line officers in California wear out as many cars as in Illinois even though in California the line moves one chair per year not two. California is huge north to south.

Given the size of Texas, I can't imagine the cars of our grand line officers survive the travel requirements. Cars only last 300,000 miles each and in Texas that's like 2 round trips west to east. Like California only tilted over and instead of vertical mountains its wider in area. ;^)

If GL officers actually did make a profit, I would object too. But I've talked to brothers who were told that if they had to save up to afford the earnest deposit they could not afford to go into the grand line.
 

Bloke

Premium Member
In California to even apply to join the grand line you used to have to deposit $50K earnest money to prove you could afford it. And only candidates who had left that money in the account for multiple years ever got considered.

Sorry, but can you confirm the above - that GL officers all need to deposit $50K ? Little in Freemasonry surprises me... but that did...
 

Bloke

Premium Member
Budgets are usually created and put before the General Assembly during Grand Lodge for approval and are voted upon by those empowered to do so by the Digest of Law followed by that Jurisdiction.

Not so here. We've delegated our budget to the Board of General Purposes (the working executive committee of GL).... reports of that committee and the Grand Tres are presented at Quarterly Communications and voted on for acceptance. Never seen one not accepted.
 

Bloke

Premium Member
Our GL is regular and in amity with UGLE.

Our Grand Sec is paid and there is a sizable office staff (perhaps around 10-15) for circa 10,000 members. Grand Lodge Capitation is $104 PA (AUD) per member and this gets split between all sorts of things. I'm in two Craft Lodges, one is about $300 and the other $330 PA with a dinning fee of $20 and $35 per meeting and we meet 11 time per year. Those lodge fees ( $300 & $330) do not include the $104 GL annual capitation fee, but you only pay it once per year in our jurisdiction - in the lowest numbered lodge you are a member of...

I don't have a problem with the Grand Sec and others getting paid - but like Coach said, we need to get value for it.

Our GM and other line officers are not paid. All visiting GL officers etc are not paid. All those guys are working as dedicated volunteers.

The only people who often get paid in our jurisdiction in respect to ceremonial work are the tyler (outer guard) and organist. The lodge sets if they will or will not get paid and how much. It is generally $30-$50 per meeting, but its hardly a great earner. They tyler sometimes get paid, but I dont think I've ever seen an organist not get paid.

The only other person likely to "profit" from ceremonial are visitors requested to do a charge; they will generally get fed for free. I traveled 1.25 hours to a lodge recently to deliver a charge they could not cover, then they charged me $20 for dinner. They've done this to me several times and it is starting to grate..... it seems petty to worry about $20 (esp as a Freemason interested in discharging me first degree obligations) but I'm not sure next time I am asked I will travel 1.25 hours then get pay $20 for a meal at the other end.. charging visitors is fair enough.. but charging visitors you have asked for help and who specially travel to your lodge to help seems a bit cheeky.

*Whinge over*
 

JJones

Moderator
Interesting, I assumed no GL officers were paid. GL secretary being paid doesn't surprise me though.

There are a few reasons taxes might go up however. Inflation is most obvious reason. Also, some jurisdictions have very old and very large GL buildings they wish to keep, which means they require extensive renovations that nobody wants to pay for, like Texas.
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
Not so here. We've delegated our budget to the Board of General Purposes (the working executive committee of GL).... reports of that committee and the Grand Tres are presented at Quarterly Communications and voted on for acceptance. Never seen one not accepted.
Interesting twists. Thanks! It's not done that way here, but who knows?... It may go to that someday here too.
 

Companion Joe

Premium Member
In Tennessee, the Grand Secretary is a full-time paid position. There are a few others who work in the office, and I'm pretty sure they are full-time employees of the Grand Lodge of Tennessee (although not necessarily Masons - support staff, custodial, etc.). The upper level Grand Officers get a little bit of expense money, but it doesn't scratch the surface of what they spend on a yearly basis. When work needs to be done to the Grand Lodge building, they add a "building assessment" on top of our per capita tax. They did several million dollars worth (5 maybe) a couple of years ago, and we'll be paying for that for some time.

I am an appointed York Rite Grand Officer this year, and I didn't get a dime. I got some gifts from the GHP and ate for free at the nine district meetings we had across the state. All my lodging, gas, and food along the way came out of my pocket.
 

MBC

Twice Registered User
Premium Member
Our GL is regular and in amity with UGLE.

Our Grand Sec is paid and there is a sizable office staff (perhaps around 10-15) for circa 10,000 members. Grand Lodge Capitation is $104 PA (AUD) per member and this gets split between all sorts of things. I'm in two Craft Lodges, one is about $300 and the other $330 PA with a dinning fee of $20 and $35 per meeting and we meet 11 time per year. Those lodge fees ( $300 & $330) do not include the $104 GL annual capitation fee, but you only pay it once per year in our jurisdiction - in the lowest numbered lodge you are a member of...

I don't have a problem with the Grand Sec and others getting paid - but like Coach said, we need to get value for it.

Our GM and other line officers are not paid. All visiting GL officers etc are not paid. All those guys are working as dedicated volunteers.

The only people who often get paid in our jurisdiction in respect to ceremonial work are the tyler (outer guard) and organist. The lodge sets if they will or will not get paid and how much. It is generally $30-$50 per meeting, but its hardly a great earner. They tyler sometimes get paid, but I dont think I've ever seen an organist not get paid.

The only other person likely to "profit" from ceremonial are visitors requested to do a charge; they will generally get fed for free. I traveled 1.25 hours to a lodge recently to deliver a charge they could not cover, then they charged me $20 for dinner. They've done this to me several times and it is starting to grate..... it seems petty to worry about $20 (esp as a Freemason interested in discharging me first degree obligations) but I'm not sure next time I am asked I will travel 1.25 hours then get pay $20 for a meal at the other end.. charging visitors is fair enough.. but charging visitors you have asked for help and who specially travel to your lodge to help seems a bit cheeky.

*Whinge over*
Yes we have similar structure I think. The GSec and his team are paid.
 

Companion Joe

Premium Member
I have a lifelong friend whom I would never recommend to Masonry because he is a 100 percent capitalist, and charity isn't high on list of priorities. I was talking to him once about being a grand officer:
"Do you get paid to do that?"
"No, in the end it costs you money. The reward is it's an honor to be asked to serve."
"Screw that."
:cool:
 

Warrior1256

Site Benefactor
I have a lifelong friend whom I would never recommend to Masonry because he is a 100 percent capitalist, and charity isn't high on list of priorities. I was talking to him once about being a grand officer:
"Do you get paid to do that?"
"No, in the end it costs you money. The reward is it's an honor to be asked to serve."
"Screw that."
:cool:
Yeah, I doubt that he would be happy in a lodge or Grand Lodge.
 

Ripcord22A

Site Benefactor
Im pretty sure that in OR the GL officers that must travel get an expense account. I know that lodges will pay for the hotel costs and a mileage for the officers that attend GL and for the trainings that are put on(wardens college, Secretary training, Blue Lodge trainings ect ect) not sure about NM though
 
Top