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Women in masonry

Scoops

Registered User
In my view God simply is. It's us that have stamped an image on the Supreme Being in order to try and understand it better or, more cynically, to use that image to control people more easily.
 

tldubb

Premium Member
Your example is flawed. each indv GL would be the ARMY and the subordinate lodges the BDE and the concordinate bodies the BN and the members the companies..ect. but to place that example on Freemasonry as a whole is flawed and heres why. TN doesnt accept gays but NM does. TN subordinate lodges cannot knowling innitate a gay man. NM can. there is nothing over TN GL to tell them they are wrong. If TN and NM were military units the ARMY would make that decision and then DoD would look at it, and if necessary then congress, then POTUS then SCoUSA. no such checks and balances exist in Freemasonry. As Coach said bellow it is a label placed upon many individual organizations
Good point!


Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry Pro
 

Ripcord22A

Site Benefactor
As far as I can see the GAOTU has 2 faces. The face towards this set of universes is male and to the other set is female.

Occasionally we get visitors from the other set that appear to us as avatars.

WHAT??!?!?!?!?!?

James I really hope that you are an ANTI and you just say this stuff to get a rise out of us or in the hopes that other people outside of the fraternaty will see your posts and think that we are all that crazy. Otherwise PLEASE brother go to a PsyD and get examined.
 

Warrior1256

Site Benefactor
WHAT??!?!?!?!?!?

James I really hope that you are an ANTI and you just say this stuff to get a rise out of us or in the hopes that other people outside of the fraternaty will see your posts and think that we are all that crazy. Otherwise PLEASE brother go to a PsyD and get examined.
Yeah, really.
 

Bloke

Premium Member
WHAT??!?!?!?!?!?

James I really hope that you are an ANTI and you just say this stuff to get a rise out of us or in the hopes that other people outside of the fraternaty will see your posts and think that we are all that crazy. Otherwise PLEASE brother go to a PsyD and get examined.

Are your lodges places where people don't speculate ? James might seem a bit "out there" but many of us might say the GAOTU is a mystery and presents him/her/itself in many forms.... which is what Bro James basically said using a different turn of phrase.

I remember my third degree ob well (yes, I know they differ) but why mock him for suggesting an idea ? Ideas are the life and breath of Freemasonry. If you're not keen on what he says, don't engage and trust readers to make their conclusions. I see no profit or pleasure in mocking a brother because he marches to a different drum, if Freemasonry is a place of tolerance, please observe that Brothers...
 

Bloke

Premium Member
Thanks for your support. It seems that the tolerance of the 3rd degree obligation is better practiced in some lodges than others..

No problem... I was thinking more about support in your presence and absence and not injuring a brother...

I write for those very few brethren that practice some Masonic Science and provide my observations to compare with the results of their own experiments and possibly suggest new experiments.

I think we all practice the science James - just with different goals... personally, my major one is developing the next generations of leaders rather than esoteric pursuits... but you cannot develop those leaders without trying to obtain a broad understanding of all we do..
 

pointwithinacircle2

Rapscallion
Premium Member
WHAT??!?!?!?!?!?

James I really hope that you are an ANTI and you just say this stuff to get a rise out of us or in the hopes that other people outside of the fraternaty will see your posts and think that we are all that crazy. Otherwise PLEASE brother go to a PsyD and get examined.
Unless it's an allegory. Please understand Brother that your insistence that the symbols called words can be viewed in only one way reveals as much about you as Brother James words reveal about him.
 

dfreybur

Premium Member
I see no profit or pleasure in mocking a brother because he marches to a different drum, if Freemasonry is a place of tolerance, please observe that Brothers...

This is why we forbid discussion of sectarian religion and partisan politics in our assemblies. Brother James pushes the edge on religious topics. His statements irk some, confuse others.

I'm a mystic of a different bent than Brother James. His deal and mine are very different; we are weird in different ways.

Remember that we have all stated we believe in the existence of a supreme being and that we don't question each other on that belief. We know our conclusions are different; what binds us is the decision not the details surrounding that decision.

Forever there have been a small percentage of mystics, sensitives, eccentrics, whatever who have direct personal observation of deity. Forever there have been attempts at instrumental detection. None who report can ever duplicate their experiences so the reports do not count as evidence. That means the reports count as testimony. There's a difference between what a scientist calls evidence and what a lawyer calls testimony. Religion swims inside that difference. Mysticism swims inside that difference.

Let's step back and think about the word "testimony" and how it works with the one shoe on and one shoe off thing. Testimony is about memory of events perceived by one person but not by others. That does not have to be because they were the only person present. Testimony is about what is real to one person but does not have to be real to others. Testimony is about plan of action moving forward, stepping out in faith.

There are more reasons for having one shoe on and one shoe off than the historical reference about testimony. It's also to physically keep our candidates unbalanced at a time when they have delivered themselves into our care so that they may demonstrate the faith in us that we will have in them. There's more, though. There is the less physical version of being out of sync that brings us to the observations of mystics.

Mystics give testimony. Non-mystics evaluate testimony. All of us have decided to accept some testimony in some circumstances to have expressed a belief in a supreme being. On the one hand accepting testimony is about the character of the one giving that testimony. On the other hand in matters of experiences not shared by others, the more different it is from the testimony of others the more that impacts the perception of the character of that one mystic.

Mystics are caught in this Catch-22 of what testimony is.
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
<snicker>
WooWooFactor_01.JPG
 

Bloke

Premium Member

Coach, many atheists might say exactly the same about my belief in the GAOTU; for many (including me!), that goes beyond rational, sensible and realistic dimensions and into the realm of unschooled fantasy and wishful fabrication. Some people say the GAOTU is the imaginary friend for adults.

Jame's views are no more or less ridiculous than my belief in a supreme being.. to think otherwise is hubris

I think our founders were wise to say no religion or politics in lodge, but that in uniting men of varied spiritual beliefs and traditions, there is a common spirituality in the belief of a Supreme Being of some sort. I've got no problem when people respectfully explore each others beliefs without proselytizing, but also respect and adhere when someone shuts down a conversation to avoid conflict on the issues of religion and politics.

I think you take an rationalist's approach to Freemasonry. And why not ? There is much to contemplate and rationalise, but at the end of the day, my view is faith is irrational by its nature because it is faith and Freemasonry call us to respect (but in no way compels us to accept) other people's faith.

Using and extending on Doug's words ; were all weirdos, because we have other interests beyond just making a buck and (for those of us who's Constitution has required us to do so) have a belief in a Supreme Being, in many rooms of people now days, that puts us firmly beyond rational, sensible and realistic dimensions and into the realm of unschooled fantasy and wishful fabrication and in the category of weirdo and "woowoo".
 
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coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
Coach, many atheists might say exactly the same about my belief in the GAOTU; for many (including me!), that goes beyond rational, sensible and realistic dimensions and into the realm of unschooled fantasy and wishful fabrication. Some people say the GAOTU is the imaginary friend for adults.

Jame's views are no more or less ridiculous than my belief in a supreme being.. to think otherwise is hubris

I think our founders were wise to say no religion or politics in lodge, but that in uniting men of varied spiritual beliefs and traditions, there is a common spirituality in the belief of a Supreme Being of some sort. I've got no problem when people respectfully explore each others beliefs without proselytizing, but also respect and adhere when someone shuts down a conversation to avoid conflict on the issues of religion and politics.

I think you take an rationalist's approach to Freemasonry. And why not ? There is much to contemplate and rationalise, but at the end of the day, my view is faith is irrational by its nature because it is faith and Freemasonry call us to respect (but in no way compels us to accept) other people's faith.

Using and extending on Doug's words ; were all weirdos, because we have other interests beyond just making a buck and (for those of us who's Constitution has required us to do so) have a belief in a Supreme Being, in many rooms of people now days, that puts us firmly beyond rational, sensible and realistic dimensions and into the realm of unschooled fantasy and wishful fabrication and in the category of weirdo and "woowoo".
The "woowoo" factor is as real for me, as your belief in the GAotU... to think otherwise is hubris.
 

Ripcord22A

Site Benefactor
So my Aunt was a Pastor as was her late husband. Im not sure when it happend but my Aunt has lost touch with reality as it pertains to the GAotU. First of off she told me a story of a time when she was in South America, I cant remember the country she was in. WHile she was there there was a terrible car accident. I city bus lost control and rolled down a large embankment shredding the bus and ejecting most of its passengers. Almost everyone was killed. She said the town came together at the site during recovery efforts and started praying and almost all the people that were dead were "resurrected". SO apparently there is a city in SOuth America with a bunch of Zombies.
2nd Her husband was diagnosed with Cancer in 2013. They refused treatment at first saying they were going to pray to God and he would heal my uncle. My aunt was a RN. Yet she shunned the very scientists that her god put here on this planet for that exact reason. By the time they realised that their game of Chicken that they were playing with God wasnt working it was too late and my uncle passed in 2014.

A belief in something is not "woowoo" but when you start talking about people coming back from the dead, or things like that that is WooWoo.

Also as it pertains to Freemasonry there is no magic or devine anything. as Coach has pointed out on may occasions our degrees are not historical or anything like that. our founders took Stonemason tools and attached esoteric meaning too them, the real Stonemasons didnt. Our FOunders Made up the stories of our degrees to teach lessons because when someone has to find something the remember it better, meaning if I just tell you to be a b etter man by doing ABC that wont mean anything but if I show you a play, a song a movie or soemthing and then tell you to study it for what it is really saying you will grasp it much better.

There is no lost word, or secrets or anything. Cause it a MADE UP STORY!! the point of the storys is convey a moral compass on to people...1st: respect people privacy, 2nd LEARN! 3rd killing is bad and EARN YOUR PLACE IN LIFE THORUGH GOOD DEEDS! obviously that is pretty stripped down meaning of the degrees.

To think that the GAotU is actually watching and actively participating in the Degrees is Hubris.

People Already think that the Freemasons are crazy and we want to take over the world or we control it and we worship the devil and we are a religion ect ect, so to put on a public forum these beliefs that a "Being" is participating in our rituals is at best irresponsible and at worst intentionally destructive to the Craft.

this video is from a church in my hometown. They piped in gold confetti dust and got the people to believe that it was from god. They speak in tounges, conduct false healings and are just all around nuts. They are very pushy in town they come up to you and want to pray for you and lay hands and when you politly decline they will follow you through the store and keep insisting. When I read his comments these are the people that I think of. They even have a 1 and 3 yr program entitled School of Supernatural Ministry........

I am sorry if you feel that I am being intollerant of his beliefs but as I stated above I dont think posting those belifs are benefical to the Craft!
 

dfreybur

Premium Member
The "woowoo" factor is as real for me, as your belief in the GAotU... to think otherwise is hubris.

If we define the woowoo factor as that which is real to me based on my observations but that can't be confirmed by all others, that is very close to how I use the word mystical.

Hubris - I figure all religions are attempts by some to convince others of their woowoo. Some religions are more popular than others so some groups are better at that convincing than others. I tend to think about whether some group becomes authoritarian in their ways rather than how much hubris some group displays.

This can work because humans generally have their inner sight blocked, unlike animals. Thus cats and dogs are well known to be better judges of human character.

Interesting hypothesis. Many of us have noticed how good domesticated animals are at judging character. Some of us have noticed animals jumping at spirits. You're the first I remember to correlate these two sets of observations.
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
If we define the woowoo factor as that which is real to me based on my observations but that can't be confirmed by all others, that is very close to how I use the word mystical.
Sorry Bro., it's already been defined:

The "woowoo" factor is any esoteric, metaphysical or mystical talk that boldly goes beyond rational, sensible and realistic dimensions and into the realm of unschooled fantasy and wishful fabrication.

Any other definition distorts its intent to drive home a simple concept: Woowoo is a REAL factor where this definition applies!

Hubris - I figure all religions are attempts by some to convince others of their woowoo.
Agreed. And some non-religious mystical fanatics too.

Some religions are more popular than others so some groups are better at that convincing than others.
Agreed! Some are so good at it their followers will drink spiked Koolaid with a little gentle pointing of assault weapons.
I tend to think about whether some group becomes authoritarian in their ways rather than how much hubris some group displays....
They usually go hand in hand.
 

Bloke

Premium Member
Sorry Bro., it's already been defined:

The "woowoo" factor is any esoteric......​

Well, already defined as per a definition offered by you... but I actually think it is sort of a good definition, but for some, it would catch any sort of faith in the GAOTU ? Do you agree Coach ? Does "woowoo" include any sort of belief in a GAOTU ? As I read the definition, it does...
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
Well, already defined as per a definition offered by you... but I actually think it is sort of a good definition, but for some, it would catch any sort of faith in the GAOTU ? Do you agree Coach ?

LOL! Perhaps for those individuals exhibiting major WooWoo, themselves. Those who boldly go beyond rational, sensible and realistic dimensions and into the realm of schooled fantasy and probable fabrication are less likely to be accused of WooWoo. ;)

Does "WooWoo" include any sort of belief in a GAOTU ?

If it meets the criteria, sure. If it doesn't, it's less likely to get the label. A good indicator though would be talk of riding unicorns around the north pole... that's a dead giveaway!

As I read the definition, it does...

As I read it, it doesn't necessarily lean that direction.

 
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