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Tyme / NJRGL of Georgia

Registered User
My Lodge is in the Grand Lodge of Texas, and I thought that was a red flag. The only ones I am aware of that are recognized in Texas are the Grand Lodge of Texas, AF&AM, and the Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Texas.

So there was no meeting on
My Lodge is in the Grand Lodge of Texas, and I thought that was a red flag. The only ones I am aware of that are recognized in Texas are the Grand Lodge of Texas, AF&AM, and the Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Texas.

So there was no meeting in
HOUSTON TEXAS November 8, 2013
 

aw3552

Site Benefactor
It's not a complete 100% correlation. The entire family of PHA jurisdictions is regular but the UGLE only recognizes once local recognition is in place and then the PHA jurisdiction has to make the request - Oklahoma so far has not made the request.

About the only issue I could see with that is that many members of the military who are PHA have overseas lodges that fall under the Oklahoma PHA jurisdiction.
 

Tyme / NJRGL of Georgia

Registered User
It's not a complete 100% correlation. The entire family of PHA jurisdictions is regular but the UGLE only recognizes once local recognition is in place and then the PHA jurisdiction has to make the request - Oklahoma so far has not made the request.

There are some countries where it's not clear which jurisdiction to chose. Both France and Italy have competing jurisdictions.

What we can say is if the jurisdiction is on that list their are absolutely regular. But there are regular jurisdictions not (yet) on their list.

So if there are regular jurisdictions not (yet) on their list ....
Then they won't be "recognized" until the internet is updated ..... Correct ??? ...
Therefore "recognition", relies on the internet .....
 

Tyme / NJRGL of Georgia

Registered User
The UGLE does not recognize that Grand Lodge: http://www.ugle.org.uk/about/foreign-grand-lodges. Correct me if I am wrong, since I am new, but doesn't UGLE have to recognize the Lodge for it to be considered regular?
The UGLE does not recognize that Grand Lodge: http://www.ugle.org.uk/about/foreign-grand-lodges. Correct me if I am wrong, since I am new, but doesn't UGLE have to recognize the Lodge for it to be considered regular?

The UGLE recognizes ...
Grand Lodge of Greece Symbolic Grand Lodge of Hungary Grand Lodge of Iceland (Icelandic Order of Freemasons) Regular Grand Lodge of Italy Grand Lodge of Latvia Grand Lodge of Lithuania Grand Lodge of Luxembourg Grand Lodge of Macedonia Sovereign Grand...
 

Ripcord22A

Site Benefactor
So if there are regular jurisdictions not (yet) on their list ....
Then they won't be "recognized" until the internet is updated ..... Correct ??? ...
Therefore "recognition", relies on the internet .....
No. The internet is just a tool for those of us that dont have the grand secretaries of ever jurosdiction on speed dial. The GL secretary must petition the UGLE for recognition.

Being in the US just know this....if your lodge is not the GL of ENTER STATES NAME HERE or the MOST WORSHIPFUL GL of ENTER STATE HERE then its a clandestine organisation and you cant just walk up to any lodge of GL of ENTER STATES NAME HERE or the MOST WORSHIPFUL GL of ENTER STATE HERE and attend their meetings the way we can.

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Tyme / NJRGL of Georgia

Registered User
I was first made a mason in my heart ....
"Recognition" had nothing to do with that ...
I joined this site looking for brothers to connect with.
Sorry i wasted your tyme & mine ...
 

Bloke

Premium Member
I was first made a mason in my heart ....
"Recognition" had nothing to do with that ...
I joined this site looking for brothers to connect with.
Sorry i wasted your tyme & mine ...
Hi Bro. No ones trying to waste time, but if you ever try to visit regular lodges after having been initiated in an unrecognized lodge, you become acutely aware of this issue. In my state, we have 12,000 freemasons in just under 300 lodges. An 'irregular' mason visiting our jurisdiction can visit about 2 lodges of about 80 people in a co-masonic lodge. That's the only notable irregular group i know of here
 

The Traveling Man

Registered User
I was first made a mason in my heart ....
"Recognition" had nothing to do with that ...
I joined this site looking for brothers to connect with.
Sorry i wasted your tyme & mine ...

It is VERY hard to convince someone that they are not a Mason. I belong to most of the Masonic Facebook groups and trust me you are not alone. Regular Masons are seekers of Truth. Clandestine men are the exact opposite, they don't listen to facts, they don't listen to reason, they won't see anything outside of what their lodge teaches them. They get duped, waste their money and in the end miss out on the true Masonic experience. The truth is that none of the Lodges you listed are recognized by any regularly constituted Grand Lodges anywhere in the world. That is a fact. If you choose to overlook it then that is on you. But you have a group on real Masons here trying to whisper wise council and steer you in the right direction. I suggest you do as I'm sure you learned in your 1st degree and put your pride to the side, subdue your passions and Learn so that you may improve yourself in a Regularly Constituted Lodge of Masons.
 

dfreybur

Premium Member
I was first made a mason in my heart ....

And the best way to act on that is to switch to a regular jurisdiction.

I understand. You've just been told that your jurisdiction is bogus and you were given the ways to look that up. You're frustrated at us for telling this to you out of loyalty to your own lodge. Take your time looking up regularity and recognition. Let it simmer like a slow cook kettle of beans. Let it ferment like a good wine. Understand that few or none of the members of your lodge have any idea they joined a counterfeit. Then on your own schedule join us in our assemblies.
 

dfreybur

Premium Member
So if there are regular jurisdictions not (yet) on their list ....
Then they won't be "recognized" until the internet is updated ..... Correct ??? ...
Therefore "recognition", relies on the internet .....

Not even slightly correct. They won't be recognized because they are not regular, not ever. Jurisdictions without valid lineage can never be regular and thus can never be recognized.

Shock to your system. You went in with the best intentions and then you learn this. You would rather think we are full of it than think your sponsor's sponsor's sponsor duped your sponsor's sponsor. And thus down the chain so you ended up duped. Not your fault but very shocking. Look it up. Take your time.
 

Bloke

Premium Member
Now i have a question about that....i thought it was possible to be regular, in that their ritual and requirements for membership and landmarks ect are regular but they could never be recognized and would forever be clandestine?



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For sure. If a breakaway group of Masons started a competing GL in England in competition to UGLE its not going to be recognised. We've had such a situation here, but the new irregular GL died.
 

dfreybur

Premium Member
Now i have a question about that....i thought it was possible to be regular, in that their ritual and requirements for membership and landmarks ect are regular but they could never be recognized and would forever be clandestine?

The best known example would be the PHA branch of our American family. They all descend from African 459 of the Premier GL of England. They were declared regular and that gives hope to clandestine jurisdictions, right? It doesn't work that way. There's more to it than that. 1) They had no other choice because they were not accepted by the other branch of our American family in that era. And 2) they remained loyal to the Premier GL. That second point is crucial.

During the merger of the Antients and Moderns in 1812/13 all of the American lodges were dropped from the roll but up until that point African 459 had continued sufficient correspondence. African 459 attempted to continue their correspondence. They had demonstrated a lineage that was continuous even though they had had to hive other lodges to form their own jurisdiction(s).

The situation of other splinter clandestine jurisdictions does not have that lineage.

There are ways to become regular. Healing agreements could be worked out. The model might be the original merger of the Antients and Moderns. But can you imagine a GM of a clandestine jurisdiction agreeing to take his degrees over again?
 

Ripcord22A

Site Benefactor
The best known example would be the PHA branch of our American family. They all descend from African 459 of the Premier GL of England. They were declared regular and that gives hope to clandestine jurisdictions, right? It doesn't work that way. There's more to it than that. 1) They had no other choice because they were not accepted by the other branch of our American family in that era. And 2) they remained loyal to the Premier GL. That second point is crucial.

During the merger of the Antients and Moderns in 1812/13 all of the American lodges were dropped from the roll but up until that point African 459 had continued sufficient correspondence. African 459 attempted to continue their correspondence. They had demonstrated a lineage that was continuous even though they had had to hive other lodges to form their own jurisdiction(s).

The situation of other splinter clandestine jurisdictions does not have that lineage.

There are ways to become regular. Healing agreements could be worked out. The model might be the original merger of the Antients and Moderns. But can you imagine a GM of a clandestine jurisdiction agreeing to take his degrees over again?
No I understand the lineage part, my question is about being regular in workings and what not but being straight clandestine. to me PHA never should have been considered clandestine, as you pointed out above, they trace lineage to African 459 that came from the Premier GL.
 

mrpierce17

KOP Council director / Lodge instructor
Premium Member
No I understand the lineage part, my question is about being regular in workings and what not but being straight clandestine. to me PHA never should have been considered clandestine, as you pointed out above, they trace lineage to African 459 that came from the Premier GL.
I think you may be confusing clandestine and sporadic there is also irregular for example any of our southern stats GL of state & there PHA counterpart who don't have mutual recognition with each other are considered clandestine to one another even though they are both regular ( weird I know ) , sporadic lodges just formed out of nowhere with no lineage , irregular lodges may have somethings in the way they work or the manner in witch they where formed that doesn't quit line up with regular Masonic protocol landmarks exc. any my submit to the jurisdiction of a legally constituted GL and therefore become regular and recognized if I am wrong someone pleas help me out this sort of thing can become very confusing
 
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Dontrell Stroman

Premium Member
I read where a brother stated that "PHA" has the oldest charter. Can someone verify ? Also, if this is true, then wouldn't that mean said GL of state would need to apply for recognition from PHA ?

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mrpierce17

KOP Council director / Lodge instructor
Premium Member
I read where a brother stated that "PHA" has the oldest charter. Can someone verify ? Also, if this is true, then wouldn't that mean said GL of state would need to apply for recognition from PHA ?

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That is correct we have the oldest original charter on American soil there are lodges that where chartered before African Lodge but due to unexpected circumstances lost , fires exc. they where issued copies PHA still holds there original charter it is kept under lock and key in the safety deposit box it is put on display every now and then when African Lodge number 459 reopens the Phylaxis Society had it on display at a event a while back
 
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