You don't care about charters yet you brought it up over and over. Makes sense to me now.
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UGLE
- Thread starter JM-MWPHGLGA
- Start date
You don't care about charters yet you brought it up over and over. Makes sense to me now.
You should follow your own advice. Hit us with some facts or documentation to prove whatever point it is, you are trying to make.
JM-MWPHGLGA
Premium Member
If you was intellectual enough you would see the questions about the charter isn't my motive. We kept touching basis on that subject because it was a ongoing topic. Lol I am following my own advice I'm surely not following yours
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JM-MWPHGLGA
Premium Member
Any book. You haven't read all books concerning Masonic history and its whereabouts. Let's not be Egocentric concerning Masonic talk. You've been debating with me from the start so you should know I only care about the start. The charter was only a objective to my subject. I completely understand about grand lodges beginning with charters. I still have my questions and whys and how's. Regardless of what standard they created.
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Wow. That was very intellectual. I'm impressed. Look at sarcasm before you get too excited.
Not sure who this is directed at. I doubt anyone claimed to have read all books concerning Freemasonry. But there is something to be said for having documentation when you are making a point. Apparently, that is a foreign concept to you. You were making all kinds of claims on this board before you were even a Master Mason. That speaks volumes.
JM-MWPHGLGA
Premium Member
Wasn't trying to be my Brother. I'm not in the business of downgrading. I simply stated if you was intellectual enough because I'm not about to call you dumb or stupid.
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JM-MWPHGLGA
Premium Member
I took advice from you because at that point of time it was positive and me being a EA wasn't aware of those concepts. But when you say things that's not debatable or not in a teaching formula. Then it holds no value to me.
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Now you know how I feel reading your posts. Carry on. Obviously, you already know everything.
Frankly, I wouldn't really care if you thought I was intellectual enough or not. It's kind of a silly thing to bring up regardless. I guess you are trying to convince us that you are somewhat intellectual. Who knows what your point is anymore!
You really shouldn't be calling anyone dumb or stupid before taking a long hard look in the mirror.
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JM-MWPHGLGA
Premium Member
Lol, just see yourself on to another post then. This is irrelevant.
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Lol. Then why bring it up in the first place. Zero understanding for such an intellectual.
Ignoring foolishness from now on. Button engaged. End of discussion.
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Bloke
Premium Member
Still, you cant blame people for replying to your original post:
So, in the OP, you wanted to know who charted "Grand Lodge of England" but now "don't care about the Charters"
Not being smart but just pointing that out.
So now, you've redefined your question to "My only concern is the start"
So you need to define "the start". Is it when we went from 2 degrees to 3? Is it when operatives admitted the first non-stone mason? Is it when stone masons incorporated codes of moral behaviour into their rules ? Is it when we had working tools to moralise on ? Is it 1717 ? 1813 ? Is it when we switched from Noah to Hiram ? Or at some other important innovation or change ?
What event or change marks modern freemasonry is a better question and if you're asking when modern speculative freemasonry was born or the first event or group which lead to it.
JM-MWPHGLGA
Premium Member
In my original post I said out of curiosity later I stated what was my motive. I'm not upset lol. I'm only stating let's have respect of other ideas. No idea isn't stupid. The gentleman and others jump out of debatable subject and went outside the box. I am not for that and never will. I respect people's opinion only if it's relevant and professional. And Yes, whether it started in Egypt of Spain somewhere this is my motive I know England set the standards. But what's the Beginning. If it's inside the debate box there is no being smart because that's apart of the game.
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dfreybur
Premium Member
In anything like the level of detail depicted in our degrees, definitely. In being a Grand Master millennia before the concept was invented, definitely. In appearing in two books of the Old Testament, there he is.
SimonM
Registered User
If you want to go back before 1717 then its a question on how much myth and iterpretation you want to accept.
If you act like a historian at a university you wont come much longer then somewhere in the middle of the 17th century(at best).
If you can tolerate speculations and more implicit connections then you can find intresting threads going back a few more centuries, but then it all depends on what themes you focus on.
Is it the roman builders guild that -pehaps- had an influence on the medival guilds who built the cathedrals?
Is it the theme from Ramsays oration with the legend of the templar connection?
Is it the esoteric threads with the rosecrucian influence?
All of these are hard to prove but if one or more of them would be true they would constitute a "Beginning" for masonry. My examples here are just that, examples. I'm sure you can find other that are just as intresting to speculate about but impossible to show that they have connection with masonry.
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The Traveling Man
Registered User
Like the other Brothers have said its not easy to speak on the start. Freemasonry (as we practice it today) was pretty much started in 1717. Prior to that you had various aspects of the Craft that were practiced separately. They hadn't come together. Theres Templarism, Rosicrucians, Mason guilds, etc etc that all have their own history. Some of those may have come together in some places but not in other places. It wasn't an organized system. Freenasonry is the result of many different beliefs, rituals, agendas, etc coming together. A peculiar system of morality, veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols
Indeed, we know it wasn't the start of Freemasonry.
Bloke
Premium Member
The three points I've eft are three that I would broadly discount as "the start of Freemasonry"
"Philosophical propositions" because what we have today is a pastiche of so many of them.
"Spiritual science" - because I think the term is so broad. For many it will destroy religion, for others it brings religion and science together.. for some, it's about astral projection and other things. I don't know a lot about it, but I'd be interested in your definition. Something like the below seems the most "rationalist" I've just read and the sort of thing I suspect you may have in mind;
How people think about spiritual science[/B said:
How people think about spiritual science[/B said:
Assuming, but not dogmatically accepting the above is somewhat accurate, I do not think it would be a broadly accepted as congruous with speculative Freemasonry. James, when you talk about how the Second Degree is so important, the above is what I generally the sort of thing I think you are talking about, or sacred geometry, or science (knowledge and understanding of the universe) generally.
"Underlying intent" is also just too broad a phrase and will also be argued.
Some of your list (perhaps all) might have made a contribution in forming our system, but I dont think you could say any were "the start" of Speculative Freemasonry.
I am not sure when "the start" of Freemasonry is either, but I generally accept the theory we came from operative Freemasons as the most likely and hence the point when they not just incorporated some moral teachings (or codification) into their rules, but also started to accept non-operatives as members. I would say that marked the birth of Modern Speculative Freemasonry.
*enter stage left Coach N*