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Masonic communication between "mainstream" Masonry and PH Masonry

Philos

Registered User
Hopefully a well informed brother can help me out.

I belong to a lodge under The Grand Lodge Of Texas. The other day I met a PH Mason who just moved here from Florida. He hasn't affiliated with any lodge here in Texas yet, and I know that both grand lodges recognize each other as regular and inter visitation is permitted after certain permission is granted, but can I speak masonically with him outside of lodge? Of course I don't want to violate my obligation and I don't want to cause this brother to do the same...so assuming he belongs to a recognized PH lodge in Florida and is in good standing, am I able to discuss differences in ritual, learn from him how PH does things in Florida, and have esoteric discussions?
 

Bloke

Premium Member
Hopefully a well informed brother can help me out.

I belong to a lodge under The Grand Lodge Of Texas. The other day I met a PH Mason who just moved here from Florida. He hasn't affiliated with any lodge here in Texas yet, and I know that both grand lodges recognize each other as regular and inter visitation is permitted after certain permission is granted, but can I speak masonically with him outside of lodge? Of course I don't want to violate my obligation and I don't want to cause this brother to do the same...so assuming he belongs to a recognized PH lodge in Florida and is in good standing, am I able to discuss differences in ritual, learn from him how PH does things in Florida, and have esoteric discussions?

If your both regular Freemasons (you are) why wouldn't you ?
 
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MarkR

Premium Member
Probably not, until he affiliates with a PHA Texas lodge. Most states don't recognize Florida PHA (Most Worshipful Union Grand Lodge,) because they don't have amity with their "mainstream" GL, and usually a state Grand Lodge will only recognize a PHA Grand Lodge if they have amity in their own state. Thus, I'd bet that Texas doesn't recognize the Union Grand Lodge, and visitation would NOT be permitted, nor would Masonic communication.

Tread carefully; check with your DDGM or whatever similar office you have.
 

Bloke

Premium Member
Probably not, until he affiliates with a PHA Texas lodge. Most states don't recognize Florida PHA (Most Worshipful Union Grand Lodge,) because they don't have amity with their "mainstream" GL, and usually a state Grand Lodge will only recognize a PHA Grand Lodge if they have amity in their own state. Thus, I'd bet that Texas doesn't recognize the Union Grand Lodge, and visitation would NOT be permitted, nor would Masonic communication.

Tread carefully; check with your DDGM or whatever similar office you have.
Hmm...what he said...
 

Dontrell Stroman

Premium Member
Why do you brothers say this, I can't recall in my obligation where it states I will only know for sure a man is a mason if I sit in Lodge with him. Maybe it's a jurisdictional thing.
 

Joseph Thornton

Registered User
Interesting thing SORT OF on topic.

I was walking home and listening to my EA degree proficiency on my phone. A coworker stopped me just to chat and asked, what I was listening to? Sooooo I either had to tell him it was Freemason memorization OR lie to him. So I chose not to lie.

He then started in with lots of questions about FM. I answered as best I could without revealing anything and being so new to FM I am sure the answers I gave left a lot of information out. Since he continued on in so much interest I told him the story of how I approached the lodge on my own before a meeting and introduced myself to strangers. If he was really interested he could accompany me to a pre-lodge dinner and I would introduce him tot he lodge members, and he could see for himself what type of men they are.

The twist is, he is black. I did also give him the little info I knew about PH FM. Also knowing that some states have "issues" I double checked with my own EA degree coaches and as far as they are concerned there is no issue here at our lodge and should be no issue in our state. The only exception is, one of them was under the assumption that if a black man wants to join a Blue Lodge in this state, he'd need to request a waiver from the PH lodge. The assumption was also indicated that it should be a small formality with no issues to do so. For instance he lives on the west side of town, the PH lodge is on the east side. So the drive is less than convenient when there are multiple Blue Lodges closer than the PH Lodge is.

I am intrigued and puzzled by the PH variations that continue to arise.

The first mason I ever spoke to about becoming a mason was in fact a PH mason from that lodge on the far side of town. We were working at the same factory together at the time. I was impressed y this gentleman and would have been willing to petition his PH lodge, but I wanted to plug into my own community where I live. This was all before I knew there were any differences for PH lodges and in some states, "issues".
 

Joseph Thornton

Registered User
I was only repeating the assumption that was stated from my coaches.

That being that if a black man wants to join a Blue Lodge he needs to get a waiver from the PH lodge. And doing so was implied to be simple and easy. As I am so new and easily confused, I understood this to be a PH procedure, like a courtesy, not a Blue Lodge issue. Just like the fact that PH lodges really arent even needed anymore. But PH Masons continue to seperate out of honor for the PH tradition by their own choice. (again states vary)

These men I spoke with indicated that they were personally involved in the process of insuring that the state GL does recognize the state PH lodge. And to the next step also insuring that PH masons are welcome in our lodge and that we are equally welcome to visit theirs.

As I said interesting "issues and variations".
 

dfreybur

Premium Member
It depends on what you mean by "speak Masonically".

You can act on the square, treat each other as Brothers. You can crack jokes about the antics of the PMs at lodge (always best when it's a story about me). You can show each other your dues cards. You can attend any event of each other's lodge that is open to the public. Most especially you can encourage him to petition for membership in either branch of our Texas family.

What you should not do at this point is the details that we do to get past the tiler to attend lodge. Because MS PH Union GL of FL does not yet have local recognition with GL of FL that's still something to wait on.
 

MRichard

Mark A. Ri'chard
Premium Member
Hopefully a well informed brother can help me out.

I belong to a lodge under The Grand Lodge Of Texas. The other day I met a PH Mason who just moved here from Florida. He hasn't affiliated with any lodge here in Texas yet, and I know that both grand lodges recognize each other as regular and inter visitation is permitted after certain permission is granted, but can I speak masonically with him outside of lodge? Of course I don't want to violate my obligation and I don't want to cause this brother to do the same...so assuming he belongs to a recognized PH lodge in Florida and is in good standing, am I able to discuss differences in ritual, learn from him how PH does things in Florida, and have esoteric discussions?

No, the Grand Lodge of Texas does not recognize the PHA grand lodge in Florida. They are not recognized by the UGLE either unfortunately. We also recognize the PHA grand lodge in Maryland. Don't assume any others. Hopefully, we do blanket recognition in the future and recognize every PHA grand lodge that is recognized by its state grand lodge.

If he demits and becomes a member of the MWPHGLTX, then we do recognize them and we are in full amity.
 
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Dontrell Stroman

Premium Member
Again, I'm still missing something. Why does a "black man" need to get permission from a PH GL to join a state GL. It's almost like saying if your black you have to a a PH mason, and if you don't want to then you need a wavier to be something else. Please don't take offense as this is not directed at you, I just don't understand the logic.
 

MRichard

Mark A. Ri'chard
Premium Member
I was only repeating the assumption that was stated from my coaches.

That being that if a black man wants to join a Blue Lodge he needs to get a waiver from the PH lodge. And doing so was implied to be simple and easy. As I am so new and easily confused, I understood this to be a PH procedure, like a courtesy, not a Blue Lodge issue. Just like the fact that PH lodges really arent even needed anymore. But PH Masons continue to seperate out of honor for the PH tradition by their own choice. (again states vary)

These men I spoke with indicated that they were personally involved in the process of insuring that the state GL does recognize the state PH lodge. And to the next step also insuring that PH masons are welcome in our lodge and that we are equally welcome to visit theirs.

As I said interesting "issues and variations".

Unfortunately, you are incorrect. There are 9 states that don't even recognize the PHA grand lodge in their state. Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Mississippi, Tennessee, West Virginia, South Carolina, Louisiana, & Arkansas.
 
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MRichard

Mark A. Ri'chard
Premium Member
Again, I'm still missing something. Why does a "black man" need to get permission from a PH GL to join a state GL. It's almost like saying if your black you have to a a PH mason, and if you don't want to then you need a wavier to be something else. Please don't take offense as this is not directed at you, I just don't understand the logic.

He doesn't really know what he is talking about. Not even sure if he is a Master Mason according to his signature.
 

Joseph Thornton

Registered User
Again, I'm still missing something. Why does a "black man" need to get permission from a PH GL to join a state GL. It's almost like saying if your black you have to a a PH mason, and if you don't want to then you need a wavier to be something else. Please don't take offense as this is not directed at you, I just don't understand the logic.

Actually I didnt mention GLs at all. PH or Blue GLs.
 

Joseph Thornton

Registered User
Unfortunately, you are incorrect. There are 9 states that don't even recognize the PHA grand lodge in their state. Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Mississippi, Tennessee, West Virginia, South Carolina, Louisiana, & Arkansas.

Actually what I said was completely correct for the context of the coaches that said it. The conversation was never about those states, but relation to our own state, and actually our own Blue Lodge specifically.
 

Joseph Thornton

Registered User
He doesn't really know what he is talking about. Not even sure if he is a Master Mason according to his signature.

I made it clear I am new, I made it clear I don't REALLY know. I made it clear I was repeating a conversation I was directly involved in.

This response was rude. Now I need to be MM before I am allowed to chat about conversations I actually had?
 
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