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Having your light taken

Warrior1256

Site Benefactor
I'm a law enforcement officer, you literally just discribed theft at a minimum in every legal jurisdiction I've worked.
Absolutely right! It dosen't matter what a GL sanctions. City, county, state and federal law trumps GL rules.
 
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Ripcord22A

Site Benefactor
I do not think that the OP was implying the theft of anything, I read it as confiscation to prevent the brother from displaying the colors of that lodge, I assumed that it would be returned to him once he was found proficient.
I also assumed that whatever action taken by the brethren of that lodge would be in accordance with their by-laws
No Brother, they are talking about see some random person wearing a ring hat ect and asking questions(read:strict trail or due examination) to see if the wearer is in fact a Mason and if not then take it from them, forcibly if necessary. Now ive seen degrees in 4 jurisdictions and all of their obligations are different and all of their questions are different...no way i pass..... say....Minnesota's(a jurisdiction ive never sat in) catechism if some rando just comes up and starts asking questions.

Both of the jurisdictions i belong to have rules that only MM can wear a piece of jewelry or display our emblems on our cars. But nothing about wearing a hat with the lodge name and number on it

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LK600

Premium Member
You may call it what you wish brother, but........if the ability to do so is sanctified by their GL, and the brethren of that jurisdiction agree to it, then I would have to say that "theft" is a strong and improper word for it.
But hey, thats just my opinion
Maybe, but to be clear... whether it is sanctioned or not is irrelevant to the fact that it is a crime and will get you arrested. (ex-law enforcement myself)
 

GKA

Premium Member
We are obviously talking about two different things, perhaps if I clarify it better...
If the offending brother were asked to surrender said property until he was found worthy of wearing it.
I do not condone the forced action
 

goomba

Neo-Antient
Site Benefactor
Grand Lodges are adminstrative bodies of the Craft, nothing else. They are not a source of morality. In a court room they are a admin body of a private club.

The laws of the government aren't a source of morality. Saying taking property from another without their consent is illegal is not a moral concept. Someone believing the taking is justified does not change the legality.

If the Craft ever teaches to take from another by force is unmasonic I believe it's violating a principle teaching. Master Mason's sound immediately recognize this teaching and think back to whom they represented.

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goomba

Neo-Antient
Site Benefactor
We are obviously talking about two different things, perhaps if I clarify it better...
If the offending brother were asked to surrender said property until he was found worthy of wearing it.
I do not condone the forced action
It's good to know you are not talking about confiscating the property of another person and rationalizing that action under Masonic authority.

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GKA

Premium Member
Grand Lodges are adminstrative bodies of the Craft, nothing else. They are not a source of morality. In a court room they are a admin body of a private club.

The laws of the government aren't a source of morality. Saying taking property from another without their consent is illegal is not a moral concept. Someone believing the taking is justified does not change the legality.

If the Craft ever teaches to take from another by force is unmasonic I believe it's violating a principle teaching. Master Mason's sound immediately recognize this teaching and think back to whom they represented.

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Just to be clear, I never said, nor did I imply that anything should be taken from any brother by force.
 

LK600

Premium Member
We are obviously talking about two different things, perhaps if I clarify it better...
If the offending brother were asked to surrender said property until he was found worthy of wearing it.
I do not condone the forced action
Nor did I ever think you were. I was trying to be clear that taking someone else's belongings (whether earned or not or lodge/grand lodge approved or not) is illegal. Beyond that, I also think it is a bad idea for any WM or brother to have another brother surrender any belonging to them. You will be taking a huge risk. (coercion, etc)
 

Ripcord22A

Site Benefactor
We are obviously talking about two different things, perhaps if I clarify it better...
If the offending brother were asked to surrender said property until he was found worthy of wearing it.
I do not condone the forced action
I disagree, tell him that according to GL rules he cant wear it, amd should take it off, if he refuses then speak the the JW and let him the SW and WM handle it from there.

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goomba

Neo-Antient
Site Benefactor
Nor did I ever think you were. I was trying to be clear that taking someone else's belongings (whether earned or not or lodge/grand lodge approved or not) is illegal. Beyond that, I also think it is a bad idea for any WM or brother to have another brother surrender any belonging to them. You will be taking a huge risk. (coercion, etc)

Yep. This bigger issue is the person not following GL rules. We should follow of rules. Give the new brother guidance if he doesn't want to comply then he shouldn't be in our Craft.

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Warrior1256

Site Benefactor
Maybe, but to be clear... whether it is sanctioned or not is irrelevant to the fact that it is a crime and will get you arrested. (ex-law enforcement myself)
Absolutely!
The laws of the government aren't a source of morality. Saying taking property from another without their consent is illegal is not a moral concept. Someone believing the taking is justified does not change the legality.
Right!
or did I ever think you were. I was trying to be clear that taking someone else's belongings (whether earned or not or lodge/grand lodge approved or not) is illegal. Beyond that,
Yep!
Beyond that, I also think it is a bad idea for any WM or brother to have another brother surrender any belonging to them. You will be taking a huge risk. (coercion, etc)
Also true!
tell him that according to GL rules he cant wear it, amd should take it off, if he refuses then speak the the JW and let him the SW and WM handle it from there.
Right!
Give the new brother guidance if he doesn't want to comply then he shouldn't be in our Craft.
Also true.
 

goomba

Neo-Antient
Site Benefactor
Another Master Mason and I were just having fun. We were asking each other the questions from our jurisdictions. He said "you missed a word". I said "that word isn't in this section of my Grand Lodge".

Things are similar 3 X 2 = 6. But so does 2 x 3, 6 x 1, etc. The grips aren't universal, the words aren't universal, the ritual isn't either. What is universal is the spirit. It transcends our limited understanding.

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Warrior1256

Site Benefactor
In another forum, I asked a defender of this practice a question on the list. He couldn't answer it. I asked for his ring. He stopped his advocacy. I may continue that as a practice.
Lol! Great!

This is a pet peeve of mine. What rational person would believe that they have a right to take someone's personal property because that person can not / would not answer their questions??? The whole idea is just ridiculous!
 
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