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Where does belief come from?

Bloke

Premium Member
Beliefs are not fact, they're just what we believe.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Nor is belief Faith. A belief should have some sort of rationale against it, even if faulted, while Faith is what we believe in the absence of the rational.

Some beliefs can be prejudices, but perhaps a good question is; are all prejudices beliefs ? ... And might all beliefs act as prejudices ?

For all these things those, what ever our beliefs and faiths - its probably safe to assume they are all relative to our limited understanding, even as the smartest human, and hence we could be wrong in some or all of them..
 

Bloke

Premium Member
Your beliefs become your thoughts,
Your thoughts become your words,
Your words become your actions,
Your actions become your habits,
Your habits become your values,
Your values become your destiny.
― Mahatma Gandhi

"Your beliefs become your thoughts " ...we sure about that... do our thoughts become our beliefs, or more commonly, is it what we are told and accept, become our beliefs for most of us ?

Perhaps our beliefs shape our thinking, but if our thinking is only limited by our beliefs, then they are limited, unless we belief everything should be questioned..

Yep, that's where I am at - question everything :) because what we think about it is probably wrong...
 

hanzosbm

Premium Member
"Your beliefs become your thoughts " ...we sure about that... do our thoughts become our beliefs, or more commonly, is it what we are told and accept, become our beliefs for most of us ?
Some beliefs can be prejudices...

These two ideas got me thinking, and have led me to disagree with Mr. Gandi's statement. As you said, some beliefs can be prejudices (or lead to prejudices, but that's a different discussion). But a prejudice can be challenged by thought, as can a belief. The statement that 'your beliefs become your thoughts' suggests that this is a linear progression, but we know that's not the case.
 
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Bloke

Premium Member
These two ideas got me thinking, and have led me to disagree with Mr. Gandi's statement. As you said, some beliefs can be prejudices (or lead to prejudices, but that's a different discussion). But a prejudice can be challenged by thought, as can a belief. The statement that 'your beliefs become your thoughts' suggests that this is a linear progression, but we know that's not the case.
I agree - I'm not too sure about several lines of Gandhi's -especially the first couple, and I think "Your words become your actions," should read "Your words should become your actions" because if you say something, you should do it and always hold yourself to what you say. Not all do. I try to, but a simple enthusiastic statement at a public meeting which I realised was a promise certainly shaped a decade of my life and made it hard. That happened because my values did shape my destiny as I believe you should keep your promises.

I think the thought pattern might be more circular - but hopefully not going around in circles... more walking the same road with different perception, experience and perhaps information, perhaps its spiral rather than linear or circular - but I'd take linear over circular any day...... but Gandhi might have said those words in Hindi and they loose something in translation...

Somehow this thread made me think of this;

It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble.
It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.

Bro Mark Twain

But I think, forget all that and simply try to answer the question
"Where does belief come from?"

I think belief, as distinct from Faith, should come from our thoughts.

When we are a child, many do not think about what our parents tell us - but even then, we make the choice to believe it... so maybe belief comes from our thoughts and choices about a combination of thoughts, observations and external information, both good and bad..... but that excludes emotions from beliefs and I believe (LOL) emotions play a role, especially in something like prejudice... perhaps emotion is just a constituent ingredient in anything we do and hence is caught up in both our thoughts and choices, but I think it needs to be specifically acknowledged.

So how about this

Beliefs arise from conscious and subconscious decisions based on a combination of thoughts, observations, feelings and external information.

Now, we could just look this up in a philosophy book, but that's no fun and won't teach us much so... now...over to Coach to rip that apart :D
 

Athena

Registered User
You take what you absorb with your empirical senses. Understanding comes from how others explain what you experienced through these senses. Belief is a manifestation of the two. It's all about prioritizing your beliefs and using the most beneficial belief which is determined on how it affects the self and others when thought of and spoken about. One cannot simply discard a belief because they don't want it anymore, it will always be a belief because it is what you believe is true and will remain with you. Priority my friend.
 

Bro Book

Registered User
A Will, can be a set of instructions, that are meant to be carried out after the death or apparent death of a being, it can also be what a being desires to do or have done. As for beliefs, what we believe has no effect on what is. What I mean is, if, everyone believed the same lie or for that matter disbelieved the same truth. It, is still what it is. Desires, seem to me, to go hand in hand with passions, and most of us are in agreement, that our passions needed to be subdued.

Sent from my RCT6973W43 using My Freemasonry mobile app
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
I agree - I'm not too sure about several lines of Gandhi's -especially the first couple, and I think "Your words become your actions," should read "Your words should become your actions" because if you say something, you should do it and always hold yourself to what you say. Not all do. I try to, but a simple enthusiastic statement at a public meeting which I realised was a promise certainly shaped a decade of my life and made it hard. That happened because my values did shape my destiny as I believe you should keep your promises.
Darn Right! Unfortunately, integrity is assumed here and rightfully so. Without integrity, and for that part "authenticity", the entire premise falls apart.
I think the thought pattern might be more circular - but hopefully not going around in circles... more walking the same road with different perception, experience and perhaps information, perhaps its spiral rather than linear or circular - but I'd take linear over circular any day...... but Gandhi might have said those words in Hindi and they loose something in translation...
Agreed! His original words conveyed things in his language that English readers might never receive. However, when we review the spirit of what was said, even when translated into English, we can usually fill in the missing pieces fairly quickly.
...I think belief, as distinct from Faith, should come from our thoughts.
Faith is choosing to accept a premise as true and you support it regardless of any external support OR lack of support of the premise.
Belief is accepting a premise as true because you chose to assume it is supported externally.
When we are a child, many do not think about what our parents tell us - but even then, we make the choice to believe it...
We have faith. ;-)
...so maybe belief comes from our thoughts and choices about a combination of thoughts, observations and external information, both good and bad..... but that excludes emotions from beliefs and I believe (LOL) emotions play a role, especially in something like prejudice... perhaps emotion is just a constituent ingredient in anything we do and hence is caught up in both our thoughts and choices, but I think it needs to be specifically acknowledged.
Emotions come from how we perceive what is before us or what we anticipate will be before us. Our beliefs shape our perceptions.
So how about this

Beliefs arise from conscious and subconscious decisions based on a combination of thoughts, observations, feelings and external information.

How do paradigms of reality fit into all this?

Now, we could just look this up in a philosophy book, but that's no fun and won't teach us much so... now...over to Coach to rip that apart :D
Would not touch it with a ten foot pole Bro.! :cool:
 

Bloke

Premium Member
...Faith is choosing to accept a premise as true and you support it regardless of any external support OR lack of support of the premise.
Belief is accepting a premise as true because you chose to assume it is supported externally.

I like it !

...How do paradigms of reality fit into all this?

More that paradigms - is it not more a question of intellectual capacity to evaluate beliefs ?
 

pointwithinacircle2

Rapscallion
Premium Member
More that paradigms - is it not more a question of intellectual capacity to evaluate beliefs ?
One of my favorite quotes is "If the student is not ready the teacher literally does not exist". If a person has not prepared their Psyche (by Psyche I mean the emotional, intellectual, and spiritual self) they will not understand what you are saying. For me, the hardest part of Psyche-logical growth is accepting that those around me are often are unprepared to "become better"; and that often the better I become the more distance there is between me and them.
 

Bloke

Premium Member
...Please run with this.

We're on a theme "the greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is illusion of knowledge" Stephen Hawkin. It's basically what Mark Twain said when quoted above.

A paradigm can both be a tool and a shackle. What counts is your ability to use a paradigm, to examine an idea, and move in and out of the paradigm to evaluate the idea. In this case, the idea is a belief. So I guess, if you want robust beliefs that have a chance at being correct, the key is critical thought and education to help you shape that thought.
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
We're on a theme "the greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is illusion of knowledge" Stephen Hawkin. It's basically what Mark Twain said when quoted above.
Agreed!
A paradigm can both be a tool and a shackle. What counts is your ability to use a paradigm, to examine an idea, and move in and out of the paradigm to evaluate the idea. In this case, the idea is a belief. So I guess, if you want robust beliefs that have a chance at being correct, the key is critical thought and education to help you shape that thought.
Agreed!
 

dfreybur

Premium Member
A paradigm can both be a tool and a shackle. What counts is your ability to use a paradigm, to examine an idea, and move in and out of the paradigm to evaluate the idea. In this case, the idea is a belief. So I guess, if you want robust beliefs that have a chance at being correct, the key is critical thought and education to help you shape that thought.

Thomas Kuhn's "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions" discusses paradigms extensively. It's one of the most important books of modern philosophy and modern history. Should be on the top 50 reading list of non-fiction books to read during your life.

Your statement is one step beyond his lessons. Thanks!
 

hanzosbm

Premium Member
I've often said of Freemasonry (but, really, philosophy in general) that the most important word is 'why'. I believe that it is in constantly challenging our thoughts that we grow. 'Why' is a challenge though not always an argumentative one and in my experience helps to either follow a thought to new places or to discover a flaw in one's beliefs, which requires an adaptation.
Of course, all of this, as Coach pointed out, is predicated on integrity. I remember going through these exercises with a young man who had requested my help in talking through some ideas. When the idea of 'why' was applied, his original idea started to break down. Rather than accept this and reconsidering his original hypothesis, he began to come up with support for his argument that I highly doubt he himself believed. Therefore, being able to honestly challenge one's own beliefs is paramount.
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
I've heard it said...
  • Religion and Philosophy make every effort to answer "why".
  • Science makes every effort to answer "Who, What, Where, How, When, ...".
Both seek to do this with the utmost of integrity. However the practitioners are sometimes biased in this. ;-)
 

Bloke

Premium Member
Thomas Kuhn's "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions" discusses paradigms extensively. It's one of the most important books of modern philosophy and modern history. Should be on the top 50 reading list of non-fiction books to read during your life.

Your statement is one step beyond his lessons. Thanks!
Thanks - I will put that on my reading list...
 

pointwithinacircle2

Rapscallion
Premium Member
I've often said of Freemasonry (but, really, philosophy in general) that the most important word is 'why'.
I acknowledge that this statement is a valid paradigm, and that many (if not most) people agree with it. It is simply not my paradigm. For me philosophy, and Freemasonry, are best summed up as "the search for the best way to think about things".
 

dfreybur

Premium Member
Kuhn certainly had a very great impact on my view of science, but I have not abandoned Popper's falsification method in my own process even though it is not sufficient in itself.

http://www.iep.utm.edu/pop-sci/

I have a copy of "The Logic of Scientific Discovery" in my current reading queue. Probably 1-2 years out given my reading rate for printed books. If it comes available as an audio-book before then I'll "read" it sooner.
 
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