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A Brother Asks: Your Thoughts on this Meme

dfreybur

Premium Member
You're absolutely right, it COULD be correct. To my mind, when we talk about what a symbol means, it's like asking what a piece of art or symbolism in a book mean. The artist/author may have had some particular meaning in mind and we might get another meaning out of it. Does that mean one is right and the other is not? There's a debate for ya! I remember William Golding being asked about his book Lord of the Flies (a book that almost every child in this country is taught is filled with symbolism). The interviewer was asking about the obvious symbolism of this particular thing meaning something or other. Golding responded that this view as pure, as you put it, bovine output; he never intended for that meaning at all. Of course, he wrote the book with symbolism galore, but not all of the interpretations of the readers matched his intention. I guess the question then is, are those interpretations 'wrong'? Is there such a thing?

There was a article about a similar experience by science fiction author Isaac Asimov. He encountered a professor of literature teaching some of his stories. The professor of literature taught symbolic meanings. Asimov asserted that he was the author and the stories had no such meaning. "You're just the author. Authors have no idea what their work means." Asimov was clever enough to report the experience as both a jibe to himself and to that professor of literature.

I've been pondering the idea of the distinction of Freemasonry as an organization and Masonry as a practice of personal betterment.

To some extent that can mean the degrees are the way the organization propagates itself and are thus mostly Freemasonic. They are what we do that keeps bringing us together.

But the obligation mentions secret arts without ever defining what they are. I have long thought these are not parts of the degrees. Some are the type of practice that can be shouted from the roof tops but still remain secret because they are mostly experiential - We treat each other as kinfolk. There are many bits of practice that are visible in the open yet different from other orders.
 

Bloke

Premium Member
...[Bloke quoting an unnamed WM "The First Degree is about birth, the Second how you live your life, and the Third how it ends"] It is only one man's view being put forth to someone who is a newbie. I would never say this to a newbie. It's misleading and misrepresents them..

I've been rarely heard to use it, and generally with "one interpretation of the degrees is the first being about birth, the second. etc" but I would say it's an interpretation within "acceptable range". Not within that range for you ? Where it falls down for me is "how you're life ends", again, like the other degrees, I think their about how to live rather than anything else. To boil them down, they're about how to conduct yourself honourably, and the tools to measure that, and intellectual development.

You think the birth-life-death thing is a complete misrepresentation, even when applied as analogy and/or simile and/or metaphor? Does only using the birth-life bits not even work ?

...[Bloke - I don't buy the Birth-Life-Afterlife/Resurrection interpretation of Degrees, esp in relation to the Third Degree] .Me either! ( I have an entire chapter in my last book addressing that very bastardized aspect. Want to hazard a guess as to where I took the conversation? :D).
.

Here ?


...[Bloke - Degrees are less the sign posts on a road, but rather the water you swim in] .Disagree. They are not the territories; they ARE the maps. Although there are many who make them the territories and never see that they are the maps.? :D).

That was the first time I'd ever said (well, typed) that. I agree they are maps (and sign posts on a journey) but I still like this water simile because once you have mastered the work of each degree (and I don't lay claim to having done so) then you apply all these lessons and skills at the same time..

..[Bloke Likewise, I think the Third Degree has a lot to do about "Birth" (change) claimed as the focus in the First, but again, its just more obvious in the First than in the Third - and all these elements are in all the second degree. ...] I understand. I just don't agree. It's unfortunate too that such a notion is well entrenched within the fraternity. It connotes the newly made MM is a child. He is not and if he takes upon himself this notion, he is not a Master at all and wears the title falsely..

Hmmm.. yet I would imagine that one walks out of the Third Degree understanding it.
 

Bro. Stewart P.M.

Lead Moderator Emeritus
Staff Member
Ah the TRUE beauty of the Fraternity. The identical yet truly independent experience.

The degrees are indeed what you make of them. The overall experience is simplified as youth/middle age/old age, best explained by the experience or knowledge learned by the candidate. Since we represent the ancient operative stone masons, we are either learning the art and honing our skills, putting experience to work, or guiding and mentoring the whole team.

Reality though, a lot of us, myself included will spend the majority of our lives in the middle aged stage of Masonry rather than that of old age.
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
... To boil them down, they're about how to conduct yourself honourably, and the tools to measure that, and intellectual development.
Nice!
...You think the birth-life-death thing is a complete misrepresentation, even when applied as analogy and/or simile and/or metaphor? Does only using the birth-life bits not even work ?
No and no. As previous stated.
...Here ?
And elsewhere, as well!
...That was the first time I'd ever said (well, typed) that. I agree they are maps (and sign posts on a journey) but I still like this water simile because once you have mastered the work of each degree (and I don't lay claim to having done so) then you apply all these lessons and skills at the same time..
Only Total Immersion will do!! :D
...Hmmm.. yet I would imagine that one walks out of the Third Degree understanding it.
That's the point. Most everyone doesn't understand it.

However, the degree is a test put forth in the form of a ritualize Morality Play. It tests you as to whether you actually did do the Work of the previous degrees. There are only two outcomes:
  1. If you did do that Work, you understand the degree to be a celebration and acknowledgement of completing that Work and that you are The Word.
  2. If you didn't do the Work, you will believe that you actually received a substitute for the real thing, because that's exactly what you are.
 

Bloke

Premium Member
..That's the point. Most everyone doesn't understand it.

However, the degree is a test put forth in the form of a ritualize Morality Play. It tests you as to whether you actually did do the Work of the previous degrees. There are only two outcomes:
  1. If you did do that Work, you understand the degree to be a celebration and acknowledgement of completing that Work and that you are The Word.
  2. If you didn't do the Work, you will believe that you actually received a substitute for the real thing, because that's exactly what you are.
So, your thought is if we really understand the First and Second Degree, you'll walk out of the third degree understanding it ?
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
So, your thought is if we really understand the First and Second Degree, you'll walk out of the third degree understanding it ?
I am saying: When you cultivate the skills that come about by doing the Work that the First and Second Degree direct you to do, you'll walk into the third degree recognizing it for what it is.
 

Phil Pearce

Premium Member
This public discussion concerning the meaning of the Degrees is disheartening and disappointing. Remember your Obligation about circumspection Brothers, both its implicit and explicit meaning. This is a PUBLIC forum. On the subject at hand, you are delving too deeply, IMHO. Who is benefiting, the OP or you?
 

Bro. Stewart P.M.

Lead Moderator Emeritus
Staff Member
This public discussion concerning the meaning of the Degrees is disheartening and disappointing. Remember your Obligation about circumspection Brothers, both its implicit and explicit meaning. This is a PUBLIC forum. On the subject at hand, you are delving too deeply, IMHO. Who is benefiting, the OP or you?

Brother Phil,

Although this discussion may be “disheartening” to you personally, to my working knowledge there has been nothing disclosed or discussed that would be considered esoteric in nature. From what I’ve observed via the sideline, this is a healthy and productive discussion amongst the parties involved.

The discussion will be allowed to continue as long as the parties involved there in remain within the length of their cable tow.
 

Bloke

Premium Member
This public discussion concerning the meaning of the Degrees is disheartening and disappointing. Remember your Obligation about circumspection Brothers, both its implicit and explicit meaning. This is a PUBLIC forum. On the subject at hand, you are delving too deeply, IMHO. Who is benefiting, the OP or you?
Hi Bro Phil

Sorry if we're making you uncomfotable but I'm within the bounds of my obligation. The reason i'm participating is because collectively we can deepen our understanding and there is nothing "secret" here and nothing bringing the Craft into disrepute. For most casual readers - the conversation is beyond them..
 
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