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Prop 5

owls84

Moderator
Premium Member
Brother, please there is no need for apologies. This actually allows me to add clarification to what we are trying to say anyway.

Just because something is going well at your Lodge does not mean that the system as a whole could not use a resolution passed. I know my Lodge is raising the bar but it has taken so much work from the people before me to do and set the standard for me to meet. I am honored to be a part of this change. I also know that for sometime they could not make changes because they did not have the numbers to fix the good ole boy system. We now do. We now are able to use the numbers to our advangtage. I just know there are others that are trying to do what the one before me have done and I think that since some members could not see past their nose they did not hear nor see the brother asking for help. It is what it is and I thank you for allowing me to clarify this.
 

HKTidwell

Premium Member
I wrote this the other day and deleted it, however I'll try to rewrite it.

A lodge should be proud of the traditions, a lodge should be humble about their history, a lodge should be proud of who they are, a lodge should be humble about today, a lodge should be proud of their abilities, but a lodge should be humble.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the lodges and members make the Grand Lodge, the grand lodge does not make the lodges. Each lodge should have enough honor, respect, and integrity to further Masonry in a good light.

Yes we have our issues in my lodge, sometimes things aren't opened exactly right or closed as they should be but I've never seen it done perfect either. I've never seen a degree preformed perfect they all have mistakes. If the lodges are making Masons then does it matter. When I say Masons I'm not meaning members, I'm mean MASONS in every sense of the word.

Do I think everybody should strive to make things better, yes I do! I think we all have a responsibility to step up to the plate. If a brother needs help then we need to help them, and not Grand Lodge. If we have a brother that doesn't know his work why should it be the Grand Lodges' issue? If the brothers in that lodge do not have what it takes to make their lodge better then give them time they will fail. If they ask for help then it is our duty to fly to their relief. Also if one of us is traveling or visiting a lodge and see it is struggling then perhaps we should join that lodge and take it upon ourselves to try to make a difference.

I see both sides to this proposition, but in the end I think that it is the responsibility of the lodges to ensure longevity of themselves unless they ask for help. Just my opinion.
 

caeservi

Registered User
As I set there and watched the vote being taken, I grew more and more disappointed. I have visited a lot of small lodges; some are very sharp and take pride in their work, some are flat-out embarrassing to watch. I'm sorry, while in general I say let the lodges decide, there are some lodges that don't care and should not have the final say on proficency of their officers. I've seen a SW try to hand his jewel over to a PM to open a FC lodge. If I hadn't brought it to the DDGM's attention (he was sitting right beside me), they would have violated grand lodge law and not thought a thing about it.
 

Bill Lins

Moderating Staff
Staff Member
I'm gonna bring this up next Monday about adding a DI certification for our officers in our by-laws.

Don't bother, guys. We tried it last year & got shot down by the ByLaws Committee. I appealed it to Tommy Griffin & he said "no". I was shocked!

Their reasoning was that the requirements are stated in Grand Lodge Law & individual Lodges do not have the authority to change them, even if the change is more restrictive rather than less. :-(
 

TCShelton

Founding Member
Premium Member
Don't bother, guys. We tried it last year & got shot down by the ByLaws Committee. I appealed it to Tommy Griffin & he said "no". I was shocked!

We will do as Bro. Rhit said, and add them to our lodge rules and regulations, so GL has nothing to do with it.

The more I think about it, I'm not really sure that GL is prepared to handle certifying lodges and all that anyway. I've had enough problems getting anyone down there to answer simple questions, let alone be responsible for a statewide initiative.
 

Wingnut

Premium Member
Just a few points:

People live up to the expectations placed on them. We see this everyday at work as we raise the expectations. This is true of course up to a point, but if that point is just barely hitting minimal standards, folks need to man up. It seems if the energy spent bitching and moaning about having to be able to open and close was put into learning how to open and close we could have shortend a lot of the discussion...

At work at one time we converted contractors to a 1st line manager position when they reached the end of their contract. Something that we had to constantly keep in mind was that once they were converted they would be equal to every 1st line manager in the company. They could also move to any 1st line manager job in the company and even be promoted to 2nd line. Many were good at their job, no doubt, but many should never have been let loose to move to other management jobs. Once a person is raised by a lodge that is pencil whipping the proficency, certifications and learnings it does the entire craft a disservice.
 

Gerald.Harris

Premium Member
Premium Member
I am a 40 + year Mason and I have seen a lot of change in the Law Book. I have no problem with the Form 101 and that is what this is all about. Every lodge should be able to open and close their Lodge. And the East is not a Training ground for that. However, it is not the Grand East job to tell or certify a Master for that position. Several years a go the Law book stated that the elected Master Shall be able to open and close the lodge and most Lodges set their Lodge Instructor to labor instructing the line Officers in their duties for opening the lodge in the correct manner and the results was reported to said lodge, They had Pride that their Masters and Line Officers could do their duties., and that was left up to the Lodge to determine if he was.. And the then it was changed Should, a big difference in the word. That is when the Lodges started loosing their pride. Our young Masons should be trained not given the history of our Fraternity

My Brother, I well remember the days of which you speak, I also remember that it was the duty of the DI or a Member of the Com on Work, to sign a document (Form 71- I think) That had to be signed by an Installing Officer at Installation stating that the brethren were all certified. This changed at the end of RW Mike Gower's tenure as Grand Master because it was his recommendation that the form be done away with. A short year or two later the wording in Art. 276-A was changed from Shall to Should. In a few short years the ritualistic opening and closing ended up where it was in 2008, when the GM requested the DI's grade the lodges to see where they were in their profeciency in the O&C ritual. Being a DI, I can tell you that in some cases it was worse then terrible in some lodges. So at the end of RW Griffin's year he recommended a change to Art 276-A once more, and the word was changed to Shall again. Now in one short year, we have reverted back on the road to mediocracy again.
In answer to your statement that it is not the Grand East who should tell a lodge if their officers are certified or not, I say to you, Then to whom does the responsibility lie? Where are the laws made and changed, why would the Grand Lodge leave it to the lodges to enforce a Grand Lodge Law?
The simple fact of the matter is, that if the lodges are left to their own system of enforcement, then there are several of them that will not even begin to see that their Master is Certified because they simply don't care. I do not understand this line of thinking, but history convinces me that I am right.
I also listened to RW Harrison make a statement that wasn't helping a brother out what Masonry was all about? I say that how are we helping a brother out if we do not make him accountable for his actions.
 

Sirius

Registered User
The simple fact of the matter is, that if the lodges are left to their own system of enforcement, then there are several of them that will not even begin to see that their Master is Certified because they simply don't care. I do not understand this line of thinking, but history convinces me that I am right.

If the Lodges were left to their own, I feel a great many things would go to the wayside. We already have Lodges ,Big Cat Lodge, that do exactly what they want with reckless abandon. Lodges left completely unchecked begins the step decline into the darkness of the oblivion.
 

kmfisher1

Registered User
A Mason's proficiency is performed to the satisfaction of his Lodge each step of the way. With that in mind, I believe his Lodge would also help him decide whether or not his work is up to par enough to be WM, or any other principal officer for that matter. Each member willing to put forth the time and effort it takes to help, lead, amd assist in his Lodge knows good work from bad and so do the rest of the members. I've also attended enough forums and workshops to know that much that goes on there is very subjective. Even many of the DI don't agree on certain things, how they're said, or performed in certain ways...this will be the case regardless.
This is one reason why I feel strongly that now that the code book has been recognized and that it exists with limitations. It's time that a correct one be kept that way, each time the work changes. That way, everyone would have a proper reference, which would overall lead to much better work.

I've listened to and seen many A & B cert holders that really weren't any better than some C, tell me how this really does our craft any good?
holders.
 

RAY

Registered User
Brothers,
It's always going to be a word or so different no matter how we do it. Knowing of the situation GM Brian Dodson removed the DI's in 2006 so things could regroup and get it together. It did help but no matter what system written or verbal words will be dropped or changed by accident. This is where the mass of your proficient Brothers come into play. Putting your heads together can and will make a difference in your lodge and this is a good place to start. Having regular study nights in your lodge on degrees and the rituals will increase every ones knowledge and also strengthens fellowship. I never tell a Brother he is wrong but inform him that's not the way I have it. How we handle situations also can increase fellowship with that all important Peace and Harmony.
 

Chris_Ryland

Registered User
Brethren,

I see the points on both sides of this debate, however, I have to side with Brother Harris. If we don't have some type of certification process, then many lodges and brothers will never learn how to open and close lodge properly. Our ritual has been preserved for generations because Masons have taken pride in the learning of this ritual. The ritual has, in the past few years, taken a back seat in several lodges because of lack of participation. In several lodges, Worshipful Masters are elected by "who hasn't been Master yet" rather than by who is the best to lead their lodge for the upcoming year. In my humble opinion, we needed this process to ensure that everyone that was opening and closing lodges was qualified to do so. I don't want our great state to be embarassed if we have a visitor from another Grand Jurisdiction visit a small lodge anywhere in the state. We should all have Masonry's best interest at heart and not just our personal lodge's best interest when we consider laws such as this.
 
J

JEbeling

Guest
most of the objection to the idea of the DI involved in Certification of the WM of a lodge was the idea of "Big Brother" .. ! and most DI's worked hard to get the brethren to learn the work.. ! but the question always came up.. ! what if they didn't..? no one had a good answer..? what if you were and installing officer and you installed a brother that was not certified.. ! was Grand Lodge going to remove him..? don't think so..?

I still think this kinda of thing must be taken care of on a local level.. ! the state is just to big and to many lodges to run some kind of Certification program.. ! it has to be in the pride of the incoming Master to learn the work right.. !

having said that .. ! I can remember the first nite as a WM of the Lodge and having Grand Lodge officers in the room.. ! and holding an A Cert.. ! I couldn't have gotten my Name right if some would have ask me..?
 

owls84

Moderator
Premium Member
what if they didn't..? no one had a good answer..? what if you were and installing officer and you installed a brother that was not certified.. ! was Grand Lodge going to remove him..? don't think so..?

Should the answer be Yes? Grand Lodge step in and enforce the Law that was written. The problem is EVERYONE in the state know it won't though and that is why it has reached this point. Do you know how many times I have personally heard, "What is Grand Lodge going to do about it?". A ton. That is sad because they have been right. Please prove me wrong.
 
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Chris_Ryland

Registered User
As DDGM last year, I had to sign a form--101--that said that a brother was proficient and had the qualifications to move into the East of his lodge. I, personally told every SW that if I didn't have the required paperwork that I would personally make sure that they were not installed in their lodge. They had 6 months to comply and everyone did. They all knew the consequences of not taking care of business. We should all have the pride to take care of the business of learning to be leaders of our respective lodges, whether it is learning and certifying in the opening and closing or the L.I.F.E. Program. I am proud that I was a part of these brothers learning there work and even helped several of them with it.
 

TCShelton

Founding Member
Premium Member
Should the answer be Yes? Grand Lodge step in and enforce the Law that was written. The problem is EVERYONE in the state know it won't though and that is why it has reached this point. Do you know how many times I have personally heard, "What is Grand Lodge going to do about it?". A ton. That is sad because they have been right. Please prove me wrong.

+1.
 

owls84

Moderator
Premium Member
As DDGM last year, I had to sign a form--101--that said that a brother was proficient and had the qualifications to move into the East of his lodge. I, personally told every SW that if I didn't have the required paperwork that I would personally make sure that they were not installed in their lodge. They had 6 months to comply and everyone did. They all knew the consequences of not taking care of business. We should all have the pride to take care of the business of learning to be leaders of our respective lodges, whether it is learning and certifying in the opening and closing or the L.I.F.E. Program. I am proud that I was a part of these brothers learning there work and even helped several of them with it.

Had there been a Form 101 would they have learned it on their own?? My bet is no. So my next question is how does the form 101 hurt a lodge if it is under GL control? I still don't see the other side. If you can't take the time to learn the open and close then what? You learned more in the Q&A so you can learn. Oh, maybe they didn't learn the Q&A either.....:38: I see now.
 
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