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Looking For Some Opinions On A Situation

owls84

Moderator
Premium Member
Troll Note: This is a very great discussion and I have actually learned a ton about a topic I knew a "little" about but the knowledge that has been shared is awesome. Makes me proud to be a staffer on the site. Thanks to all that have shared. I know that others that are silent have learned something as well.
 

Ordsman

Registered User
Sorry about my atrocious grammar, my iPhone isn't great for forums, to me at least. If I remember correctly, pope John Paul, I believe put out the papal bull regarding American craft masonry in the '70's. Maybe I am wrong, but I seem to recall learning about that a few months ago on the history channel, for what that's worth. That being said, I am not catholic, nor do I proclaim to be an expert on the catholic church. I have deep respect for the church however. I have seen them do many great and wondrous things, and help many people. I truly believe that they have requirements like these because as a whole, they are trying to save their membership. The problem comes when a man thinks he can tell me what organization I can be a member of. I am a grown man, if I want to join an organization, I will deal with the consequences. I may be expelled from other organizations, the lodge for instance has this right. But no man may tell me I cannot be a believer because I belong to an organization. I have an issue with masonry being a pardonable sin, and not a grievous sin, because who can one sin trump another in the eyes of god? Cannot all sin be forgiven by the Supreme Architect? Ultimately the issue, for me, is freedom of choice. If masonry told me I couldn't be a member of another group, I would decide where I need to stand and tell the other to pound sand. Being as hard headed as I am, it would probably be the one that made the challenge. Take that for what it's worth.
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
... My desire was to simply be a card carrying member to have a bond with my father-in-law.
...Masonry was in my family and was something that I had always loved and wanted to be a part of. ... I would have left the Knights in a second to become a Mason if Masonry had such a requirement, but obviously they do not.

Anyways, a few months after becoming a Mason, I get an email from the local KofC Council asking me ... to terminate my membership in the Knights since the two organizations were "mutually exclusive". ...
Brother,

It's clear where your heart is on this. Should you truly care to keep your membership with the KofC, I recommend you respond to their e-mail in writing (through certified mail) with a query asking specifically what KofC rules and/or laws put the two organizations into a "mutually exclusive" mode. This will help clarify some of what they are using to justify their request to you. I also suggest that you CC (on paper) anyone above this "council" so that their actions are known to others outside their cloistered world and include all others who have influence over or with them.

The unfortunate aspect of such actions is that you are already a target on their radar and hence your participation in the organization from this point on will be "different" in respect to how some members with interact with you. This sounds like a personal problem with some of the more influencial council members.

I don't know how the KofC operates. If it is possible to move your membership to another KofC that is "Masonic-friendly", you may want to go that route, if it would help.

Good luck Brother.

Bro. Coach N
 

Pacotj

Registered User
Hello.

I was a k of c and yes, you can not be a k of c and a mason, it is in the book one gets when you take your first degree.

Also in the aplication they ask you if you belong to a secret society.

Altough I dont feel freemasonry is a secret society.
 

KFerguson84

Premium Member
Pacotj said:
Hello.

I was a k of c and yes, you can not be a k of c and a mason, it is in the book one gets when you take your first degree.

Also in the aplication they ask you if you belong to a secret society.

Altough I dont feel freemasonry is a secret society.

I remember receiving the book but I don't recall it saying that I could not become a Freemason. It may have said something in vague language about joining organizations against the church but Masonry is not against the church nor is it explicitly named in the K of C booklet.

Masonry is far from a secret society. The US Government keeps far more secrets than Masonry does. Does this mean I can never work for the government or hold political office because there are things that the government doesn't disclose to the Catholic Church? Also, there is no requirement to believe in a Supreme Being to work for the government. Masonry has such a requirement. It seems to me that Masonry should not be a target of the church when it is more open than the church itself or any other world government for that matter.
 

vanderson78102

Registered User
I know of at least one member of KoC that approached me about become a mason. He told me that KoC forbids its members from joining the lodge. I would assume it is because of the old animosity the church held toward us.

My advice would be to do what you think is right for you. None of us can tell you what to do.
 

Bill Lins

Moderating Staff
Staff Member
That's funny- we have a couple of Brethren in our Lodge who are also KC's- never has been a problem around here.
 

KFerguson84

Premium Member
I will remain with Masonry. That is where my heart is. Thanks for all of the responds to this thread. Great discussion.
 

david918

Premium Member
I found this on another forum.
Please fell free to use this if in an argument on this subject.

A few years ago I was in an argument on 'Christian Forums' about KoC where a catholic Priest was castigating Freemasonry and giving a list of all its evils.

O gave a list of Priciples which I said was from my Lodge

--------------------------------
Charity - Our tenetts teaches us to “Love thy neighbor as thyself.” Members of the Freemasons show love for their neighbors by conducting food drives and donating the food to local soup kitchens and food pantries, by volunteering at Special Olympics, and by supporting, both spiritually and materially, mothers who choose life for their babies. Knights recognize that our mission, and our faith in God, compels us to action. There is no better way to experience love and compassion than by helping those in need, a call we answer every day.

Unity – None of us is as good as all of us. Members of the Freemasons all know that – together – we can accomplish far more than any of us could individually. So we stick together…we support one another. That doesn’t mean that we always agree or that there is never a difference of opinion. It does mean that – as a Freemason – you can count on the support and encouragement of your brothers as you work to make life better in your community.

Fraternity – We provide assistance to the widows and children left behind when the family breadwinner died – often prematurely. The Order has programs that continue to do this today, as do individual Freemasons, who last year gave more than 10 million hours of their time to assist sick and/or disabled members and their families. In the freemasons, we watch out for and take care of one another.

Patriotism – Members of the Freemasons, be they Americans, Canadians, Mexicans, Cubans, Filipinos, Poles, or Dominicans, are patriotic citizens. We are proud of our devotion to God and country, and believe in standing up for both. Whether it’s in public or private, the Freemasons remind the world that they support their nations and are amongst the greatest citizens.
--------------------------

He went on to castigate every word of these principles. giving intellectual reasons why there was evil in each point raised.

I then confessed that this was actually from KoC web site
http://www.kofc.org/un/en/about/principles/index.html
And all I had done was change the words 'Knights of Columbus' to 'Freemasons'.

__________________
 

Benton

Premium Member
I pull the old switcheroo when defending Masonry quite a bit. It seems to be one of the most effective means of doing it. Pretty much any point anti-Masons bring up against us is either a) a flat out lie, or b) true of hundreds of other organizations in the world, but the other organizations don't get damned for it. Thanks for contributing that Brother Broman.
 

jwardl

Registered User
A sad situation indeed. The only way such a decision from the KoC Council makes sense to me is if they deem other faiths to be illegitimate. Does anyone know if such is the case?
 

Beathard

Premium Member
The catholic church has killed people for not being catholic. It is a 2000 year old tradition of non-tolerance.
 

Benton

Premium Member
The catholic church has killed people for not being catholic. It is a 2000 year old tradition of non-tolerance.

That's harsh. Things like the Inquisition were certainly terrible, but things have changed since then.
 

Beathard

Premium Member
Yes I thought so too. That is until this thread started. Twenty years ago I attended a catholic church. I was asked to give up masonry or the church. I attend a Methodist church now. I thought the catholic church was getting better, then this thread started. Sorry for the harsh statement, but come on. What are they doing if not being intolerant. When the church stops offering good council and advice what is it? When they say do this or else your out, what are they doing? Have they changed that much or are we still being persecuted? Am I missing something?

---------- Post added at 10:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:07 PM ----------

Once again sorry for entering my religious beliefs into a Masonic discussion. I was told to make a choice many years ago by the catholic church. I made it. It is very difficult to keep my mouth shut when I read or hear this type of situation. I'll shut up now.
 

Benton

Premium Member
To be fair, we do that as well. We don't allow atheists. I wouldn't change that at all, but that could certainly be perceived as intolerance on our part, if you were on the other side of the fence. We don't allow women in our lodge. Are we inherently intolerant misogynists? Note that I'm not saying we are, but it's good to remember that point of view certainly shades things differently.

One man's intolerance is another man's principle.

I have heard some Christians complain about Masonry because we allow members of other religions. I know how absurd this is; they aren't complaining about the Lion's Club or Rotary. All the same, if they truly feel our freedom of religion is a bad thing, I can't argue against that. Are they being intolerant of Masonry? Perhaps. But it is what it is. They're allowed to believe as they wish, no matter how misguided I may think it.
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
Brother,

I found that MS Masons are very tolerant of atheists and females. In fact, many of us are very accepting of them. Some of us actually marry the latter of the two.

The only thing we don't tolerate or accept is them in our tyled Lodges. That's not a bad thing!
 

Benton

Premium Member
Brother,

I found that MS Masons are very tolerant of atheists and females. In fact, many of us are very accepting of them. Some of us actually marry the latter of the two.

The only thing we don't tolerate or accept is them in our tyled Lodges. That's not a bad thing!

Brother, I think you missed my point.

The fact that we don't allow them into our tyled lodges could, in itself, be construed as intolerant. Doesn't matter if you're nice, and accepting.

I wouldn't in any way consider this [our exclusion of women and atheists] intolerance. I do not consider it a bad thing. I didn't say it was a bad thing in my post.

However, there are non Masons out there (most likely anti-Masons) who would say it is a bad and intolerant thing, that we either accept them into our lodge, or we are being intolerant.

To reiterate, I do *not* agree with this assessment. I was merely trying to point out that tolerance is in the eye of the beholder, like so many other things in life. It's something to bear in mind, when discussing intolerance from any party; trying seeing the situation from their eyes, even if you disagree with them. Then you might at least understand them better, if nothing else.
 
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