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Is Masonry "guilty" of teaching toleration?

widows son

Premium Member
Is Masonry "guilty" of teaching toleration?

All seriousness you are right. We are brothers. That's our common ground
 

brothermongelli

Registered User
In response to Brother Maloney's post ("If this is truly the doctrine of Masonry, then I cannot remain a Mason. If it is truly the doctrine that I must embrace the doctrines of all religions and reject Christ's unique status as the sole Savior.")

My Brother, the gist of Hall's statement expresses his belief that Light is to be found many places, not just in a single faith or philosophy. You are, of course - as is any Mason - wholly free to reject this notion. You may reject the idea that there is any Light to be had in Judaism or Islam or Hinduism...just as Brothers of those faits are free to reject Jesus Christ as a savior. Recall, however, that a Lodge in Israel, for example, might have upon the alter the Torah...amongst those Jewish Brethren, none might hold any idea at all about Jesus as a savior. In Turkey, you will find the Koran on the altar - in Islam, Jesus is given the status of a prophet - not savior. Those Brothers are...Brothers. Masonry does not dictate what your faith ought to be - just that you believe in a Supreme Being and in the immortal soul.
 
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jvarnell

Premium Member
I see it as Masonry bring al race, creads and religions together. Just because we have our own ideas of what is truth we need to understand that everyone else has what they call their truth also. No one is trying to get you to change your truth. When it comes to being a christian I just want to be able to defend my truth. You are embracing there doctrines you are just saying that is there doctrine and mine is this.

In response to Brother Maloney's post ("If this is truly the doctrine of Masonry, then I cannot remain a Mason. If it is truly the doctrine that I must embrace the doctrines of all religions and reject Christ's unique status as the sole Savior.")

My Brother, the gist of Hall's statement expresses his belief that Light is to be found many places, not just in a single faith or philosophy. You are, of course - as is any Mason - wholly free to reject this notion. You may reject the idea that there is any Light to be had in Judaism or Islam or Hinduism...just as Brothers of those faits are free to reject Jesus Christ as a savior. Recall, however, that a Lodge in Israel, for example, might have upon the alter the Torah...amongst those Jewish Brethren, none might hold any idea at all about Jesus as a savior. In Turkey, you will find the Koran on the altar - in Islam, Jesus is given the status of a prophet - not savior. Those Brothers are...Brothers. Masonry does not dictate what your faith ought to be - just that you believe in a Supreme Being and in the immortal soul.
 

jvarnell

Premium Member
Tolerance - noun - a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward opinions and practices that differ from one's own.
 

Frater Cliff Porter

Premium Member
The etymology of the word tolerance might offer some insight as well. The word origin means "to suffer" or to suffer the opinion of another. So as Masons we are not asking one to adopt the beliefs of another, but to suffer them as Brethren. In other words that we offer hope, faith and most importantly charity (love) towards the man regardless of his choice of characterization of worship.

That being said, to the Brother who appeared willing to quit Freemasonry over a simple characterization of faith by one man, then maybe are not ready to be a Mason.
 

widows son

Premium Member
Is Masonry "guilty" of teaching toleration?

I agree frater. Bro. Varnell nobody was attacking your beliefs. I truly see why this is avoided in lodge.
 

CajunTinMan

Registered User
That being said, to the Brother who appeared willing to quit Freemasonry over a simple characterization of faith by one man, then maybe are not ready to be a Mason.
I have mixed feelings on this statement. Although I agree that one man's opinion doesn't determine what Masonry is. And that sometimes opinions can be misunderstood. I think it is very Masonic to put one's faith before everything else. Even if that decision is based on misinformation.
 

widows son

Premium Member
Is Masonry "guilty" of teaching toleration?

I think the issue was recognizing that all religions are held dear to those who worship under them. Christ is the saviour to Christians but not to non Christians, recognizing that Christians aren't the only ones in the world. the statement was made that, the brother does not feel he should "bow down to every alter" which he shouldn't as that would be contradictory to his own belief. But the quote by bro. Hall obviously has been misinterpreted. He is saying to respect and tolerate other religions, because they all have a shred of truth in them, but not to compromise your own faith, but to know that the world doesn't revolve around your faith or anyone's faith, and no religion claims authority over another religion or person. As we have all seen here, religion sparks emotions and passions, and some get quite defensive, others are easy going and understanding. The moral of the story is that if we get so passionate about our faith and we start to bicker, A. How would this look to a new prospect? B. How are we living up to our OB? And C. If we can't find a common ground, especially among masons, then the world is doomed to live out an existence of war, pestilence, ignorance, and fear. We as masons try and light that darkness, to bring to light that we are all children of the creator, no matter what our faith is.
 

CajunTinMan

Registered User
That's why we don't discuss religion in the lodge. It's really a simple concept. Are we concerned with the person's religion at a PTA meeting, a Lions Club meeting, or any other secular event.
 

Frater Cliff Porter

Premium Member
I have mixed feelings on this statement. Although I agree that one man's opinion doesn't determine what Masonry is. And that sometimes opinions can be misunderstood. I think it is very Masonic to put one's faith before everything else. Even if that decision is based on misinformation.

My statement was probably too harsh in succinct form. Let me elaborate. Masonry is about making good men better, its about fraternalism, philosophy and personal growth I would think. If a man's faith is at the part of his journey where he is worried about what others think about it, is in a position where he feels he needs to ask what other Masons believe to determine if he should be a Mason, then he might not be in the right spot in his faith or his Masonry to make the journey worthwhile.

Masonry can definitely enrich a man's faith, but if he is worried that men don't agree with him about matters of that faith, he will miss the most beautiful part.
 

widows son

Premium Member
Is Masonry "guilty" of teaching toleration?

As do I. Well put, and Cajun we you are right about religion/politics in the lodge, but I feel that although we are masons on a Masonic blog, this isn't a lodge, and these things should be discussed, but on a respectful level, especially of one doesn't believe in the something another man believes. If we didn't discuss, how could we further improve ourselves.
 

CajunTinMan

Registered User
I understand what you're saying. And I know that you have your position on things and the only way that I can answer some your questions is to discuss it with you. Which I personally don't mind doing. This is a bad analogy, But I work part time for the corners office picking up bodies as a side job. I can do that job without becoming emotionally taxed where others can't. So I would never invite them to ride along with me.
 

Godfrey Daniel

Registered User
I don't agree that this is a "great thread". There are good reasons for the two prohibitions on topics of discussion and this thread demonstrates one of them succinctly.

Random quote-generator that I have become, I'd like to add one. The Pythagorean Sourcebook has been bandied about as a recommendation for Masons interested in Masonic philosophy. I agree, although I consider it a sort of "greatest hits" compilation. Regardless, in one of the fragments it contains (political, by Archytas), it states:

". . . for it is absurd that a shepherd should hate his flock, and feel hostile towards those he is educating."

¢¢
 

widows son

Premium Member
Is Masonry "guilty" of teaching toleration?

Yes but again we are not in a lodge... And if one feels they can't discuss without offending or being offended by another belief, then they should either reexamine their beliefs, or reexamine their position in masonry or both.
 

BryanMaloney

Premium Member
Re: Is Masonry "guilty" of teaching toleration?

So Bryan, you are saying that Rome didnt condemn anything that wasn't part of its cannon? What about the Albigensian crusade? The inquisition? Or the fall of the Templars on false grounds? Or the condemnation of freemasonry?

Prove that Rome ever ran my Church, the "Eastern" Orthodox Church. It never did at all. Rome has, indeed, condemned many things, but it is an outright lie to claim that "Christianity" condemned every single thing that did not originate within Christianity. Such a claim is within the mindset of a bigot. Indeed, Saint Justin Martyr cited pagan practices as essentially prefiguring some Christian doctrines. Since you deem yourself qualified to condemn all of Christianity, you are certainly familiar with Saint Justin Martyr, right? As for a 5-pointed star, it was considered a Christian symbol before the Enlightenment in many parts of Europe. Read "Gawaine and the Green Knight" for an example of a medieval Western Christian interpretation. I can easily tolerate others' beliefs WITHOUT bowing down to them. I do not demand that they bow down to mine, only that they cease insisting I bow down to theirs.
 

jvarnell

Premium Member
Re: Is Masonry "guilty" of teaching toleration?

Prove that Rome ever ran my Church, the "Eastern" Orthodox Church. It never did at all. Rome has, indeed, condemned many things, but it is an outright lie to claim that "Christianity" condemned every single thing that did not originate within Christianity. Such a claim is within the mindset of a bigot. Indeed, Saint Justin Martyr cited pagan practices as essentially prefiguring some Christian doctrines. Since you deem yourself qualified to condemn all of Christianity, you are certainly familiar with Saint Justin Martyr, right? As for a 5-pointed star, it was considered a Christian symbol before the Enlightenment in many parts of Europe. Read "Gawaine and the Green Knight" for an example of a medieval Western Christian interpretation. I can easily tolerate others' beliefs WITHOUT bowing down to them. I do not demand that they bow down to mine, only that they cease insisting I bow down to theirs.


Thank you brother Maloney this is what I have been trying to say.
 

widows son

Premium Member
Is Masonry "guilty" of teaching toleration?

Rome may not of ran or created your version of
Christianity, but without it there wouldn't have been the reformation. The time of Justin martyr was a bad time for Christians. Out numbered in a pagan world, the only followers at the time were women and slaves, who in the roman empire had no say in any civil or religious matter. Scholars agree that many Christian leaders sought to find a way to grow their numbers, so relating it other successful religions worked in their favor. We need to remember that st. Paul was the most influential man in Christianity, but he live much later than Christ and wasn't there listening to his word. I can give many references to prove that the origins, rites, practices, of christianity originating paganism. I won't though because I feel that it would offend brethren here that I respect. But to you mr. Maloney, I say look it up. Find out for yourself. And as for my bigotry, I have none. I believe and am passionate about my beliefs just as you have shown your are. I honestly think YOU are the bigot for not respecting other faiths, or anyone who can't see past their own views. I respect Christians and their beliefs, I have no hatred or I'll contempt for them. I once was a Christian, but I don't feel I fit in with it anymore, and I'm proud of my choice, because since I haven't been a Christian, I've learned a great of myself and who I am, and learned my place and role in this existence. This doesn't mean that I hate Christianity, I think all religions have a common origin. I also find it funny that you think masonry is making you bow down to other religions, when its not asking you to physically bow down, but is asking for respect, and the tolerance that you would expect from someone towards your faith. Didn't anyone tell you there's allegories in freemasonry?
 
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