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25 British-born Muslims are plotting to bomb airliners...

Bill Lins

Moderating Staff
Staff Member
It's past time we quit screwing around and began profiling as we should have been doing all along. Political correctness will be our undoing if we remain "stuck on STUPID"!
 

Hippie19950

Premium Member
One of the local news stations (KBTX) put up a poll and asked if the viewers thought the TSA was doing a good enough job after the Christmas Day event. Hmm, not sure OUR TSA missed the guy. Have not checked to see if WE provide them in other countries to check passengers coming to the U.S. As for me, I used to love to fly, and may have to do it again someday to visit family in other states, but at this point in time, it is far too complicated to get on board a plane to make a legitimate trip. My reason for flying in the near future is to avoid long trips contributing to sever back pain. I can't stand in line as long as they require now, and pretty much takes away from the reason for flying... I do expect safety for all who do fly, but there has to be a better, and faster way to do this. I was able to get in the military faster!! But, back to the point: The U.S. is going to have to take a stand as mentioned. We either get after this stuff, and make it work, or give up. I DON"T GIVE UP!!! I had to take 40 hours of classes every two years as a Texas Peace Officer, so I would not offend a CROOK. What about the countless people he offended, when he robbed, raped, or killed them? And now it's extended to Terrorists. Many, this has been a night of rants for me, sorry Brothers...
 

JTM

"Just in case"
Premium Member
anything we do can be countered easily, including profiling. i'm scared of what my profile would be, anyway.

"General distrust for govt"
"Willingness to voice criticism off the cuff"
"Pissed off Texan"
"10 guns in his house"

etc etc etc.
 

drapetomaniac

Premium Member
Premium Member
It's past time we quit screwing around and began profiling as we should have been doing all along. Political correctness will be our undoing if we remain "stuck on STUPID"!

How do you profile a Muslim?

Most are Asian. The failed underpants bombers was Nigerian.

I shaved my beard on 911 specifically because of this idea. Luckily I wasn't Sikh, as many were murdered due to idiotic profiling and anger.

What other profiling should we do?
Nation & World: 60 right-wing terror plots foiled - US News and World Report
SPLC report: The "Second Wave" of militia activity is now upon us | Crooks and Liars

I remember when the Oklahoma bombing happened, everyone in my building was yelling "damn muslims" even though it was the anniversary of Ruby Ridge, which was mentioned on the news in the morning and forgotten by the time another excuse to for lazy xenophobia to rear up.

I guess lessons learned in the first degree about outward qualifications only apply to the lodge room.

I'm not impressed with the idea that because I look Arab at times, I should be treated different than a guy who looks like like the Oklahoma bomber, the Shoe Bomber or a huge number of domestic terrorists.

But thanks anyway brothers.
 

drapetomaniac

Premium Member
Premium Member
By the way, security profiling who aren't political pundits don't generally accept profiling
Schneier on Security: Profiling

Behavioral and complete individual profiling (investigation) is how you can accurately tell and predict. Anything else is lazy idiocy in most situations.

This thread is about 25 men, and the solution is to profile about a third of the worlds population (Muslims) plus Arabs who aren't Muslim plus any Black or Asian or might be Muslim.. Sound productive?
 

Blake Bowden

Administrator
Staff Member
I remember awhile back the family and I were in Denver airport and we were one of those "random" families who were thoroughly searched. They made my us wake up my 12 month old baby and get him out of his stroller and examined us up and down. Now, I haven't seen anyone in a baby stroller behead soldiers or fly planes into buildings but if they did, I would understand targeting people such as myself. Instead of political correctness, we should implement some of the tactics used by EL AL. Some of these include passenger profiling, rigorous questioning and psychological evaluations. Yup, profiling sucks, but EL AL is also one the safest airlines in the world.

Drape, you make a good case though..:thumbup1: I just find these random searches politically motived and not really effective.
 
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Bill Lins

Moderating Staff
Staff Member
Drape, you make a good argument though..lol.

Not really. So far, the bad guys/girls tend to be from teens to early 40's. Why waste time & resources checking blue-haired Midwestern grandmas, infants, & others who OBVIOUSLY do not fit that profile? Only one who mentioned "Muslim" or "Arab" was drape.
 

drapetomaniac

Premium Member
Premium Member
I just find these random searches politically motived and not really effective.

All of the security airlines actions are politically motivated. In many cases, random searches are more effective than profiling.

Cuba is also safe (except for when attacked by a guy on our payroll). North Korea and similar countries are very safe domestically.
 

drapetomaniac

Premium Member
Premium Member
Not really. So far, the bad guys/girls tend to be from teens to early 40's. Why waste time & resources checking blue-haired Midwestern grandmas, infants, & others who OBVIOUSLY do not fit that profile? Only one who mentioned "Muslim" or "Arab" was drape.

What kind of profiling were you suggesting earlier that we do that we aren't right now due to political correctness?

Infants have a history of being used in attacks - BTW. I recommend checking out out domestic terrorism history for "others" we might not think about.
 

Traveling Man

Premium Member
Sound productive?

Is profiling productive, let's see here shall we?

The safest airline in the world, it is widely agreed, is El Al, Israel’s national carrier. The safest airport is Ben Gurion International, in Tel Aviv. No El Al plane has been attacked by terrorists in more than three decades, and no flight leaving Ben Gurion has ever been hijacked. What are the Israelis doing that we aren’t?

The Israelis understand that it is the people who are threats, not the objects that they are carrying.
Airports in the United States and many other countries are built around convenience while in Israel it’s all about security. We get our boarding passes online and check our baggage at the curb.

At T.S.A. checkpoints, youths stare at screens, doing the best they can to not look at nor talk to us.

Contrast this with an Israeli airport where you stay with your bags until your security check is complete, and airline and highly trained security personnel talk to you and watch you constantly. You’re not allowed to approach the ticket counter until you are cleared by the security system, while in the United States, security is an apparent afterthought.

Israeli airport security, much of it invisible to the untrained eye, begins before passengers even enter the terminal. Officials are constantly monitoring passengers’ behavior, alert to clues that may hint at danger.

Profilers make a point of interviewing travelers, sometimes at length, and oftentimes asking questions that don’t seem to make any sense at all — and that’s the idea. The point of the long questioning is to find inconsistencies in a terrorist’s cover story, or to agitate him into a panic. If you are lying or distracted by something, the profilers will soon figure that out, and you will be marked as a possible threat and action will be taken.

While the T.S.A. is busy confiscating cosmetics, small pocket knives and water bottles, the Israelis understand that it is the people who are threats, not the objects that they are carrying. To a much greater degree than in the United States, security at El Al depends on intelligence and intuition rather then performing rote actions.

In my opinion, the T.S.A. should be hiring ex-Mossad operatives as advisers and college-educated screeners with degrees in security or psychology. Is there a 100 percent guarantee of safety? No there is not. But in three decades, not one El Al plane has been attacked from within, and those are pretty good odds.

I was on a cruise not long ago in Israel where some baggage was not claimed after three requests over the public address system. The result? The Mossad blew the luggage up!

Me thinks the proof is in the pudding...
 
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drapetomaniac

Premium Member
Premium Member
Is profiling productive, let's see here shall we?
...
Contrast this with an Israeli airport where you stay with your bags until your security check is complete, and airline and highly trained security personnel talk to you and watch you constantly. You’re not allowed to approach the ticket counter until you are cleared by the security system, while in the United States, security is an apparent afterthought.

You're describing behavioral profiling. Something the many security experts who laugh at current TSA efforts have always supported.

In the context of this discussion - what about political correctness has prevented "behavioral" profiling from happening in the US?
 

JTM

"Just in case"
Premium Member
Is profiling productive, let's see here shall we?

The safest airline in the world, it is widely agreed, is El Al, Israel’s national carrier. The safest airport is Ben Gurion International, in Tel Aviv. No El Al plane has been attacked by terrorists in more than three decades, and no flight leaving Ben Gurion has ever been hijacked. What are the Israelis doing that we aren’t?

The Israelis understand that it is the people who are threats, not the objects that they are carrying.
Airports in the United States and many other countries are built around convenience while in Israel it’s all about security. We get our boarding passes online and check our baggage at the curb.

At T.S.A. checkpoints, youths stare at screens, doing the best they can to not look at nor talk to us.

Contrast this with an Israeli airport where you stay with your bags until your security check is complete, and airline and highly trained security personnel talk to you and watch you constantly. You’re not allowed to approach the ticket counter until you are cleared by the security system, while in the United States, security is an apparent afterthought.

Israeli airport security, much of it invisible to the untrained eye, begins before passengers even enter the terminal. Officials are constantly monitoring passengers’ behavior, alert to clues that may hint at danger.

Profilers make a point of interviewing travelers, sometimes at length, and oftentimes asking questions that don’t seem to make any sense at all — and that’s the idea. The point of the long questioning is to find inconsistencies in a terrorist’s cover story, or to agitate him into a panic. If you are lying or distracted by something, the profilers will soon figure that out, and you will be marked as a possible threat and action will be taken.

While the T.S.A. is busy confiscating cosmetics, small pocket knives and water bottles, the Israelis understand that it is the people who are threats, not the objects that they are carrying. To a much greater degree than in the United States, security at El Al depends on intelligence and intuition rather then performing rote actions.

In my opinion, the T.S.A. should be hiring ex-Mossad operatives as advisers and college-educated screeners with degrees in security or psychology. Is there a 100 percent guarantee of safety? No there is not. But in three decades, not one El Al plane has been attacked from within, and those are pretty good odds.

I was on a cruise not long ago in Israel where some baggage was not claimed after three requests over the public address system. The result? The Mossad blew the luggage up!

Me thinks the proof is in the pudding...
this works for a country that is a constant state of near war, where everyone has spent time in the military.

in the united states where people yell "come and take it" and sayings like "those who would trade liberty for security deserve neither" are prevalent... this doesn't exactly work.


imo, the government should have nothing to do with security at airports. then, you can go to the airlines where they do a full body scan and racial profiling, and i probably will to, but at least it wouldn't be the government.

right now, the government has a problem: too little security OR too little privacy. it's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. privatization solves all this.
 

drapetomaniac

Premium Member
Premium Member
in the united states where people yell "come and take it" and sayings like "those who would trade liberty for security deserve neither" are prevalent... this doesn't exactly work.

After all North Korea hasn't had a passenger plane get bombed that I know of.

imo, the government should have nothing to do with security at airports. then, you can go to the airlines where they do a full body scan and racial profiling, and i probably will to, but at least it wouldn't be the government.

Canada has a fine security history too - and their airports are run by nonprofits.


right now, the government has a problem: too little security OR too little privacy. it's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. privatization solves all this.

The best security you will find in an airport will be in an authoritarian state. The best domestic security will be in an authoritarian state.
 

Traveling Man

Premium Member
this works for a country that is a constant state of near war…In the context of this discussion - what about political correctness has prevented "behavioral" profiling from happening in the US?

And we haven’t been in a constant state of war since the USS Cole? Maybe that’s the problem; we are under siege and we roll over after seeing the alarm clock reads 9:11 and hit the snooze button again.

In the land of Alice in Wonderland Mad hatter logic it would make sense to jack with little old ladies and babies for bombs while avoiding the reality that a 6 year old can see for themselves. This twisted logic can only be brought to you by… the government; you know the ones whom are charged in the constitution with the national defense. While the Washington ruling class elite fly around on our dime unfettered whilst we the sheeple get to be terrorized by TSA and the terrorist, are we having fun yet? It’s become quite evident that the terrorist are not afraid of the US or its’ security. And while we’re at it let’s expose all of our intelligence; there will be a major bombing attempt in Bali during the New Year celebrations and the Wahabi lobby has been told that they were successful in killing 8 of our CIA agents. Please note the eight weren’t contractors, civilians, etc.

Will someone please tell me we are not living in Alice in Wonderland.
 
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JTM

"Just in case"
Premium Member
okay, yea, we have permanent wars going on, but none are on our doorstep. vaguely reminds me of 1984. actually, not vaguely. seriously reminds me of 1984.
 
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