anti masonry

Discussion in 'General Freemasonry Discussion' started by widows son, Sep 20, 2012.

  1. JJones

    JJones Moderator Staff Member

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    And for good reason.

    No, we're neither confirming nor denying. Assuming we were willing and able to clear all our accusations and conspiracies we'd lose a lot of our mystery.
     
  2. Frater Cliff Porter

    Frater Cliff Porter Premium Member

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    I am comfortable denying any anti-Mason a platform on a Masonic website as much as I would also keep you from the Fraternity. The Craft is not the community. It is a secretive society that specifically excludes madmen and fools. I would have no problem throwing a cube at any one of the folks from E5-11 Skip.

    You can play sweet here, but Skip I remember the good old days. The lies, the false identities, all the stuff done to Theron, etc. I don't pretend you are a good man anymore. To the contrary although you appear polite here.
     
  3. widows son

    widows son Premium Member

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    Very true. But skip you dislike masonry, I've seen your stuff on the net you've said. Does your rightful opposition include hostility? Even verbal hostility can be harmful. I will never deny your religious rights ever, but I will debate you on how far you can go with them. People can make a conscious decision on they're own if they want to be a part of something or not. I don't think anyone on here is denying your first amendment, but you can't expect to enter a masonic forum, make statements which oppose it and not expect the brethren to be somewhat offended. Again skip, there is something that you dislike about freemasonry, if there wasn't you wouldnt be trying to convert people away from it, so what exactly is it?
     
  4. daddyrich

    daddyrich Registered User

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    Poor troll is being treated poorly. That's really awful.
     
  5. T.N. Sampson

    T.N. Sampson Guest

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    You have got to be kidding. Cordially, Skip.
     
  6. T.N. Sampson

    T.N. Sampson Guest

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    Hostility is in the eye of the beholder. If you don't like having Masonic doctrine cited, directly from Masonic sources, that could be described as hostility. I think I can discuss Masonry on this forum in a reasoned manner. Whether others can respond to it in a reasoned way is up to them.

    Just what statement have I made on this forum which you find offensive? As long as this forum is open to non-Masons, I believe I have a right to discuss the subject fully, including the parts that some may perhaps not like.

    Again, where have I tried to convert anyone on this forum? If you wish to know my concerns with Freemasonry, I'd suggest you visit the E5-11 forum, or Christian Forums (Unorthodox Religion). I'd be happy to discuss them with you there. But such discussions are outside the scope of this forum. Here, it seems, it is acceptable to discuss what Freemasonry teaches and what it's members perceive it to be. Cordially, Skip.
     
  7. Traveling Man

    Traveling Man Premium Member

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    And that seems to be the problem here; you telling us what Freemasonry teaches, and we're telling you that is not what it teaches. It will never end, as long as people of your ilk continue to try to tell us how we should live our lives, how to interpret what ever you dig up, and us telling you that we are free to live our lives as we please. You telling us Masonic doctrine, and us telling you, "it is not Masonic doctrine". You still haven't learned that from your “Pike†escapades? You are wasting your time!:52:

    You fail to understand; it is we that constitute the "Grand Lodge"; we are the voting members of our Grand Lodges. Now in different jurisdictions what constitutes the voting membership may be defined differently. What we have in our libraries does not constitute Masonic doctrine, period. Your Masonic sources mean little, as they do not constitute Freemasonry as a whole, they are as such, each individuals with perceptions and opinions.

    I find it amusing that Masonry is what unites us, while you on the other-hand are attempting to divide us. You ungraciously brought up about how blacks were excluded, how about your church? What about that convoluted, deliberate miss-quote about the curse of Ham used to justify the slavery of blacks by Christians?

    And in the churches that teach hate, it’s still the most segregated hour. How’s yours looking? :32:

    You have an almost unhealthy obsession with Freemasonry, it’s almost a neurosis, if you really think that you can “convert usâ€, or that we are so stupid that we will give you some kind of fodder for your cannon, you’re mistaken.

    How’s your old Buddy Dr. Larry Holly getting along? Last I heard he was kind of pushed out of his church because of a like neurosis.
     
  8. widows son

    widows son Premium Member

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    You've cited like three things and misquoted the "GL" documents just like those who misquoted pike and hall, for example you say GL. Which one? UGLE? There are thousands of GL's. I have this forum as an app on my phone so I'm not sure how you see this forum but on page six of this thread is where this all started. I've seen your E5-11, but I've also seen a work done by Arturo De Hoyas and S Brent Morris about you skip. As far as I'm concerned you've been branded, and I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt but even the brothers here and scottish rite authorities seem to not be buying what your saying, and I hold their word over yours especially from Arturo de Hoyas. one site I visited has a checklist for Christians who are considering joining masonry seems pretty anti, and your name searched on google is attached to that site www.formermasons.org/what/toask.php
    Seems to have some pretty unmasonic overtones to it in my books. You are On a site of former masons and you've never even stepped foot in a lodge. #4 on the site struck my attention which you state: "Since the Bible is on the "sacred altar" of the Lodge, you may wish to ask if Jesus Christ is also taught there, since he is such a large part of that book." Last time I check masonry isn't Christianity. Jesus Christ was in half the book and the VSL is used only as a spiritual text for moral reference. Which is why its called VSL and not the not the bible, and which is why anyone of any monotheistic religion can be a mason. I don't think hostility is in the eye of the beholder, hostility is hostility. You have said you have nothing against masonry but yet you don't deny being hostile to it. Clearly there is an issue there, So I will ask again. What is it about masonry that irks you?
     
  9. phulseapple

    phulseapple Premium Member

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    You see skip, what you are lacking is the experience of going through the degrees. You can read about them all you like, and then try and twist and turn what you read into almost anything your heart desires. The fact of the matter is, your knowledge of Masonry was gained through reading about it. Since you mention GL documentation like mentoring material and ritual, you had to have obtained those documents through dishonest means, since those documents are meant for members only. Not because there is anything sinister or nefarious in them, but because you are not entitled to them. You did not do the work to earn the right to possess them. There is definitely something taught in Masonry, it is nothing different than what one learns in school or in life. You seem bent on getting us to discuss our ritual with you. Well, I hate to disappoint you, but none of us will do that and there is a very good reason for that. It is a universal part of the solemn obligation we took that we do not discuss it with either cowans and eavesdroppers. So, try as you might, your efforts will be in vain.
    Cordially - The Freemasons
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2012
  10. Ashlar

    Ashlar Registered User

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    Edited : A good point was raised about feeding the trolls , so I will gladly withdraw my post .
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2012
  11. crono782

    crono782 Premium Member

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    I get the sense it's a whole "make mildly audacious statements to get the trolling started while maintaining an annoying naivete when rebutted" kinda thing.

    Reminds me of this:
    Photo Oct 04, 10 49 18 AM.jpg

    :30:
     
  12. JJones

    JJones Moderator Staff Member

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    Someone made the suggestion that we ignore the fellow several posts ago. I understand it's hard to do, but if you don't feed the trolls they'll go elsewhere.
     
  13. Ashlar

    Ashlar Registered User

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    I can live with that and edited my other post to reflect it .
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2012
  14. T.N. Sampson

    T.N. Sampson Guest

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    Where have I done that?

    According to an old copy of the GLoT Constitution,
    Mirroring this is this from the installation ceremony of a Lodge WM, from the same source, pg. 113:
    These may have been altered over time, but I'd be surprised that they'd give up the power therein. Thus, the GLoT sees itself as in control of all regular Texas Blue Lodge Masonry and expects the WM to agree to that. Given all of this, I'd say the GLoT has every right to promulgate doctrine as part of its duties.

    Closer to the discussion is the training documentation put out by the TX GL Committee on Masonic Education and Service, whose duties, according to the GLoT website, include:
    Thus, any training documentation put out by this committee is indeed Masonic 'doctrine,' is binding upon the regular TX Mason and can be used to determine how Texas Masonry sees itself and trains its members to see Freemasonry within that jurisdiction. I'd be willing to bet that the current GLoT Constitution goes further into the Masonic Education area and may well dictate it's use by subordinate Lodges. I'll have to check into that.

    I haven't had any Pike 'escapades' that I know of.

    Indeed, but not just any TX Mason can show up to vote. The old Constitution limited it to a certain number of representatives from each Lodge, not the entire Lodge membership.

    As noted above, if they are issued by the GLoT, they sure are. Those not so-originated are indeed commentary, which can be useful or a waste of time based on the author's qualities.

    Nothing ungracious about it. I just noted that SC Masons happily participated in an organization that specifically excluded non-whites. Given the main themes of Freemasonry, it seems the highest form of hypocrisy to me, and to many Masons as well. Bear in mind, it's one thing to challenge the legitimacy of Prince Hall Masonry, at least up until the UGLE recognized it. But it's another to specifically exclude a man solely on the account of his race.

    I attend a mixed race church.

    Interesting how it falls to a non-Mason to address that charge. What is very clear from history is that Christians, from the time of Jesus' crucifixion, opposed slavery. In the recent few centuries, it was Christians who began the world wide efforts to eradicate the practice. My personal view is that anyone justifying slavery from the Bible is not a Christian.

    I doubt if that's possible.

    Don't know. I never knew the man. Cordially, Skip.
     
  15. widows son

    widows son Premium Member

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    Werent the men who brought slavery to the US Christian? And why do you have this obsession with masonry if your not intent on joining it? Like I said something about it irks you, you would be trying to steer people away from it of you didn't
     
  16. T.N. Sampson

    T.N. Sampson Guest

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    That is untrue. The GL quotes were properly cited and are accurate. One only need follow the trail to see that.

    No, an article of mine is quoted on a site of former masons, with my permission. Quite a different thing than you have implied.

    A very true statement.

    Well, no, but that's a matter for a forum dealing with Christian doctrine, not Masonic.

    Only for moral reference? That's interesting. I thought it was the rule and guide of faith, the great light in Masonry, a symbol of the will of God as man understands it, an essential piece of Lodge furniture.

    That is incorrect. It's called the Bible, and probably called that in your BL ritual. Freemasonry includes it under a category of books referred to as the VSL, which essentially includes any book a Freemason holds as holy (e.g., Koran, Book of Mormon, Torah, etc). From what I've seen, it's the 'Bible' in ritual, but the VSL in training documentation.

    Again untrue, at least in the GLoT jurisdiction. As their petition states:
    In general, any belief in a Supreme Power is enough to qualify a man for membership. If you were correct, Mormons and Hindus would not be allowed to join as neither are monotheistic religions.


    And again I reply: the topic is outside the scope of this forum. Cordially, Skip.
     
  17. widows son

    widows son Premium Member

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    Well I dunno about Texas but I was asked in the belief of a supreme being, not God and not once have i heard the word bible in lodge, always VSL, again lack of experience on your part. The old testament last time I check has no mention of christ, as it is originally jewish ( which jesus was by the way) You can read all you want. And what ritual have you seen? Ritual varies, In Canada it's slightly different than in America and same to other countries in the world. Look freemasonry in France, you will see the difference. Also your security"checklist" seems to mention a lot of Jesus. If you know so much about masonry then you'd know that Jesus won't be in the lodge. I think the reason for that is because jesus would not make Freemasonry universal. why impose this question? You know there is going to be no change. Freemasonry is universal, which is why you don't understand it. so many people can enjoy it, it is tolerant which because of your religious convictions you can't be. I think maybe freemasonry should exclude Christians like yourself. I truly believe that you are wrong. You may cite real references but your interpretation is too narrow to properly cite them. I think Jesus himself would be appalled at the distortion of his word by people like yourself. Humanity will evolve and the world has a way of cutting out loose ends, and I think you might fit that category one day skipper
     
  18. widows son

    widows son Premium Member

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    And if you don't think that question doesn't apply to you in this forum then why are you posting your opinions on a thread whose topic is anti masonry
     
  19. Traveling Man

    Traveling Man Premium Member

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    And that is construed as lying by omission, omitting the fact on that site that you never were a Freemason. Because you let some minion do your dirty work doesn’t remove you from your moral obligation to tell the truth. The implication, the title etc., but that’s your style.

    What you quote is Grand Lodge Law, not doctrine. You are trying to count angels dancing on the head of a pin. You time and time again are trying to pretend that what your spouting is “doctrine”, trying to co-mingle it with your interpretation of religious doctrine or dogma. G.L. Constitutions, Laws and other senseless incoherent babbling mixing it all together and then you’ll claim it’s a religion! First it was Pike then Brother Roberts, who next?
    Let’s use Occam’s razor here, shall we? You are trying (covertly) to insinuate that Freemasonry is not compatible with (your brand) of Christianity period. You are out to recon any information that you can twist into fit your end game. The problem arises when you were identified as a Cowan (just as you cried about being called a Cowan on all of the other forums).
    The other problem arises when so many of religious clerics are also Freemasons.
    I’m sure you find that very troublesome, but this fact has been pointed out to you before.

    Really? Try this...
    If your memory gets any worse, you could throw your own surprise party.:12:

    It’s really too bad I didn’t save some of your dialogue from the Masonic Forum on CompuServe, I could really have some fun here. And you claim not to know Dr. Larry Holly? Really?


    What about that convoluted, deliberate miss-quote about the curse of Ham used to justify the slavery of blacks by Christians?

    It sure was a Christian religion that first tried to abolish slavery in the U.S., but it wasn’t yours and in some circles (your Christian hating), those individuals are considered a “cult”, i.e. anyone but us because we are the only true believers etc.

    And we know why, but why do your persist on baiting individuals here when you know what your trying to attempt is forbidden?

    I too am about to swear off troll feeding. Adios and vaya con dios, Cowan!
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2012
  20. phulseapple

    phulseapple Premium Member

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    Skip - You are relying on not only outdated material in some cases, but it is material that you are not rightfully entitled to have in the first place. In closing, all I will say is you need to put aside what you have been fed by your E511 and EMFJ buddies if you want to truly learn what Freemasonry is about, because it is clear that they do not know either.
     

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