anti masonry

Discussion in 'General Freemasonry Discussion' started by widows son, Sep 20, 2012.

  1. widows son

    widows son Premium Member

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    You are entitled to nothing that is Masonic. Period. You are a Cowan and an eavesdropper. Your obsession to bring it down entitles you to absolutely nothing. Cowan.
     
  2. widows son

    widows son Premium Member

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    He clearly is blind
     
  3. phulseapple

    phulseapple Premium Member

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    Please provide me, through a PM, with the contact information of the person you obtained the NY materials from. As a MM in a lodge under the jurisdiction of the GLoNY, I have every right to know sold you those items so that I may investigate further. You personally, as a non-mason, do not have any right to be in possession of those materials, period. You have not earned that right, no matter what you may believe. In the ritual book, it clearly states that they are intended for use by Master Masons and is to be returned to the GL upon the release of a new version or the death of the member in possession of it.
     
  4. phulseapple

    phulseapple Premium Member

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    And clearly believes he is entitled to anything he wants.....in this case, he has not earned that right, nor will he ever.
     
  5. T.N. Sampson

    T.N. Sampson Guest

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    We are in agreement here. But if you can make the statement that Freemasonry is a worthy organization, then I can take the opposite view under the same logic. We tolerate each others viewpoint, as both of us have the right to our positions. Now if a man took the view that all members of a group should be murdered, that's something neither of us would tolerate. Similarly, if a man's views against Freemasonry could not be backed up by fact, neither of us would tolerate that either. So, where we draw the line between tolerance and intolerance is the key to it all.

    I beg to differ. That is totally wrong as, like you, I already know he cannot be found in Freemasonry.

    I think you are wrong on both counts. As I have pointed out, Masonry only demands that its members live up to their own moral standards. Christianity demands that they live up to God's standards. I doubt if any of us actually live up to either. O, wretched men that we are!

    I think you are conflating two things. First, the Bible can be translated many ways, the most common being literal (word for word) and thought-for-thought (what they meant) I prefer the literal, which is really the translation of the words they used in the Hebrew/Greek books to their modern English equivalents. The second element is the infallibility and inerrancy of the original manuscripts. It is more true to say I believe that the Bible is inerrant (no errors of fact) and infallible (reliable about spiritual matters). I prefer the literal translations, such as the NIV 1984, to any other translation, but any translation is acceptable as long as it faithfully keeps to the meanings of the manuscript record.

    He taught far more than that, including the fact that no one comes to God except through him.

    Again, that is not true. My Bible is the source of my authority, and the indwelling spirit my guide. Any church I attend must use the Bible as its authority.

    If you mean the churches which condemn Freemasonry do so on Biblical grounds, you are correct.

    Others may have that mindset, but I do not. If you've read my criticisms elsewhere, you will note that they are firmly based on Masonic GL documentation, which is truly the authority for Freemasonry within the various juisdictions. Quite simply, I don't assume much about Freemasony, but have concluded much based on what Freemasonry says about itself and what it teaches.

    Each of us can make that determination for himself, so both outcomes can be reached.

    You should be careful in casting too wide a net. We worship Jesus because he is God, not a separate being. Catholics certainly worship the saints, but not 'Christians' in general. Catholic doctrine includes the dead as part of the church, and the 'worship' (our characterization, not theirs) of those made saints is seen as beneficial. But it's not an essential 'Christian' belief. As to Judaism, you might want to consider that God set apart the Jews as the race through which the Messiah would come. I'm not really sure he classified them as his children, though; I'd have to check on that. He did indeed choose them for that honor, but once the prophecy was fulfilled, the way was opened for all men to become children of God, through faith in Jesus. Again, this is Christian doctrine 101.

    Again, be careful on such statements. The Allah of the Koran is unrestrained by anything, and is descrbed as a being of pure will. Thus, anything he does is right, and he can punish or not punish anyone, regardless of belief. One of the reason Muslims have been so anti-science over the years is due to that 'free will' element of Allah's nature. Christian scientists over the years did their research with the assumption that God had specific laws in effect; essentially, they wanted to read his mind about his creation. Muslims long fought that view as it would impede on Allah's free will.

    The Koran rejects the Biblical view of Jesus, which their view of Jesus is one reason that Muslims hate both Christians and Jews. Christians were taught to hate Muslims for one reason: Muslim attacks against Christians have been ongoing and relentless since the 7th century. The intolerance Muslims brought to bear against Christians and Jews was eventually learned and used by Christian armies. There is a view out there that has, with some credence, pointed out that Christianity was a pretty pacifistic religion up until the Islamic holy wars drove them nearly to extinction.

    I'd like to know your sources because that conclusion is false. One only need read the Koran to see that Allah is nothing like the God of the Bible, nor is the Muslim Jesus anything like the real one. Whoever told you that all three 'recognize' the same God is simply ignorant of the facts.

    I've found it interesting that the Koran also changes the elements of the Biblical stories it copies. In my view, the Koran is a mess from any investigatory viewpoint and is probably nothing resembling what Mohammad actually taught.

    No, we can't. Islam, in general, is not about peace at all, but about warfare, hatred and violence.

    I hope not, as that would make me the only Christian viewer who understands the implications of John 1:12-13. Cordially, Skip.
     
  6. T.N. Sampson

    T.N. Sampson Guest

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    A true statement, but an issue different from your question, which asked:
    I answered 'yes' for this reason: once a book has entered the public domain, anyone can take the book, someone's 'intellectual property' and repackage it for sale. 1923 is currently the year for books to leave copyright status and enter the public domain. Kessinger Publications has made an industry of this practice.

    So, yes you can take someone's intellectual property, place it on a CD and sell it, as long as it's in the public domain. But no, you cannot do the same to property still under copyright. And now you know. Cordially, Skip.
     
  7. T.N. Sampson

    T.N. Sampson Guest

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    Well, I once was.... Cordially, Skip.
     
  8. Traveling Man

    Traveling Man Premium Member

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    Well actually it wasn’t the SBC, and I knew you were not a Mennonite. They didn’t need to apologize for the abhorrent crime against humanity.

    So far I haven’t seen a Masonic GL that practiced slavery, but I can see that you are so full of hatred that you would seem to think so. But then again we (Freemasons) didn’t spread the lie of Ham either! Twist things as you may, but the facts remain.

    You might want to rethink this thing out again as you have been told by many clergy and their wives whom sit on the SBC/HMB, you all have more pressing matters than trying to assassinate Freemasonry. How many SBC members do you think are Freemasons, verses the percentage that are not, slim pickings, huh?

    If you really think that Freemasons have a plan for salvation, or that we pray to a different G_d than you do, you are truly delusional.

    This sort of reminds me of the madman I saw at the zoo the other day. He thought the zebra was a horse and somehow if he yelled at it loud enough and long enough, it would be come the horse he saw in his mind.
     
  9. T.N. Sampson

    T.N. Sampson Guest

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    I truly sympathize with you and understand your anger; however, I must respectfully decline to provide that information.

    I will, however, in respect for your request, ensure this material is returned to the GLoNY at some point prior to my death, and ensure that action is codified in my will in case of accidental death. I make that offer in all sincerity. Cordially, Skip.
     
  10. widows son

    widows son Premium Member

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    Masonic behavior standards are determined by the laws of the land that the mason is residing and by his faith so if he is a Christian and American then the laws of God and the constitution are binding to him. But since certain aspects of freemasonry require the member to respect and tolerate other peoples view points this is were it exceeds that of Christianity. We are not wretched creatures, in fact we are the culmination of creation, we just haven't realize our place and potential in the universe yet. By you believing that the bible is fact and infallible has severe repercussions. Those stories of the bible were written down thousands of years ago and can't really apply, other than allegorically, to a modern mindset, unless you devolve your mindset to suit it. Psychology has done many experiments on people who are fanatical fundamentalists, and their thought patterns and has conclusively determined that these people are delusional and can be classified as clinically insane ( Religulous Bill Maher) As a species we are rapidly evolving and and many fields of science such as physics, particle physics, chemistry, archeology, astronomy,noetics, as well as social sciences are leading some to a new understanding of spirituality and our relationship with God , and is painting a new picture of our role in the Cosmos. I truly think that as Jew Jesus wouldn't say that the only way through God is through him, as that is blasphemous of the Jewish faith, however recent evidence has proven that many attributes of Jesus were voted on during the council of Nicea during the reign of Constantine. Constantine was a patron of the cult of Mithra and high priest of Sol Invictus. He also was protector of christianity because he saw power in numbers. Many of Mithras attributes are identical with Christ such as the halo, the virgin birth, born on December 25th. One similarity is Christ died on the cross for humanity and Mithras slayed the bull for humanity. And when we look further back we see other cultural heroes and religious figures who share these attributes as well. I and many biblical and archeological researchers believe that this was due to the fact that Christianity was dire to compete with other more popular religions, not due to a vision that Constantine saw. Your story book authority is on shaky foundation of exaggeration and politics. Where in the bible does Christ condemn freemasonry? There are numerous Christians who are freemasons, who are of the reform sects that do not believe so. Your GL information would prove to you that any of the accusations made against freemasonry on the grounds of being global conspiracists, satanist etc are false. What freemasonry says of itself is that it takes good men and makes them better, through teaching of fidelity, fraternity and brotherly love. As for Judaism YOU may want to consider that the old testament God is the Christian God and God says that the Israelites were Gods children and he would deliver them to the promise land as Gods children. Deuteronomy 14:2 states: "For you are a holy people to YHWH your God, and God has chosen you to be his treasured people from all the nations that are on the face of the earth." this stems for the covenant made between God and Abraham, hence the major 3 religions worship the God of Abraham. Even the term messiah is Jewish and was a concept created during the Roman occupation to signify a leader of the Israelites who would defeat their enemy, not literally the coming of God as again that would be blasphemous to judaism. Now your comments regarding Islam are hateful and ignorant and don't belong on a masonic forum of tolerance and i take offense to that as I have friends who are loving and devote Muslims. Now in genesis God created all the universe, every single atom. We are just beginning to understand the vastness of the universe. To create something on the Magnitude of the universe God would have to be unrestrained by anything. Our existence is Gods pure will as we our created in his image. In the old testament God is repeatedly describe as being jealous, spiteful and vengeful, often killing those who are in his opposition. Remember this is your God. The first problem i have with " Christian scientists" is that Christian and scientist are in the same category. There are many Christians in scientific fields as I stated above, but christian science isn't a real science. In fact its a joke. As for Muslims being anti science, here's a list of scientific inventions made by Muslims from the 7th century to the 17th century:
    1. Coffee
    2. Pinhole camera
    3. Chess
    4. Parachute
    5. Shampoo
    6. Refinement( distillery)
    7. Crank shaft
    8. Metal Armor
    9. The pointed arch
    10. Surgery
    11. Vaccination
    12. Fountain pen
    13. Windmill and bridge mill
    14. Numerical numbering
    15. Soup
    16. Carpets
    17. Pay cheques
    18. Spherical shape of the earth( concept)
    19. Rocket and torpedo
    20. Gardens
    21. The discovery and isolation of Acetic acid, Citric acid, Nitric acid, sulfuric acid, hydrochloric acid, and Tartaric acid
    22. Tin glazing
    These are some of the inventions that you could not live without. As you can see Muslims are quite the contrary to being anti scientific, in fact I believe Christianity was the only one faith that was and in some cases still is anti scientific ( biblical museum in kentucky.) As for Muslims hating Christians you are wrong, that is fundamentalist propaganda, only in recent time has there been wide spread hostility to Christians and westerners. There are examples of brutality against Christians by Muslims in the past, but the majority of it was isolated and due to conquest, consequentially other populations and ethnicities succumbed to the Muslim sword side by side with Christians. I think a more accurate statement would be that
    Muslims were increasingly hostile to Christians due to the crusades, which was just an excuse to unite Europe with the pope as the ruler. And finally as for the big 3 worshipping the god of Abraham: all three claim that God made a covenant with Abraham, God in the old testament and in the Koran are very similar, both Christianity and Islam holy texts stem for the Torah. The Abrahamic god in this sense is the conception of God that remains a common attribute of all three traditions. In all of Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Baha'i Faith God is conceived of as eternal, omnipotent, omniscient and as the creator of the universe. God is further held to have the properties of holiness, justice, omni-benevolence and omnipresence. As the creator, adherents of Abrahamic faith believe he is also transcendent, meaning that he is outside space and outside time and therefore not subject to anything within his creation, but at the same time personal and involved, listening to prayer and reacting to the actions of his creatures. As for some sources here you go: Derrida, Jacques (2002). Anidjar, Gil. ed. Acts of Religion. New York & London: Routledge. ISBN 978-0-415-92401-6.
    Assmann, Jan (1998). Moses the Egyptian: the memory of Egypt in western monotheism. Harvard University Press. ISBN 978-0-674-58739-7.
    Barnett, Paul (2002). Jesus & the Rise of Early Christianity: A History of New Testament Times. InterVarsity Press. ISBN 978-0-8308-2699-5.
    Blasi, Anthony J.; Turcotte, Paul-André; Duhaime, Jean (2002). Handbook of early Christianity: social science approaches. Rowman Altamira. ISBN 978-0-7591-0015-2.
    de Perceval, Armand-Pierre Caussin (1847) (in French). Calcutta review – Essai sur l'histoire des Arabes avant l'islamisme, pendant l'époque de Mahomet, et jusqu'à la réduction de toutes les tribus sous la loi musulmane. Paris: Didot. OCLC 431247004.
    Dodds, Adam (July 2009). "The Abrahamic Faiths? Continuity and Discontinuity in Christian and Islamic Doctrine". Evangelical Quarterly 81 (3): 230–253.
    Firestone, Reuven; American Jewish Committee, Harriet and Robert Heilbrunn Institute For International Interreligious Understanding (2001). Children of Abraham: an introduction to Judaism for Muslims. Hoboken, NJ: KTAV. ISBN 978-0-88125-720-5.
    Freedman H. (trans.), and Simon, Maurice (ed.), Genesis Rabbah, Land of Israel, 5th century. Reprinted in, e.g., Midrash Rabbah: Genesis, Volume II, London: The Soncino Press, 1983. ISBN 0-900689-38-2.
    Guggenheimer, Heinrich W., Seder Olam: The rabbinic view of Biblical chronology, (trans., & ed.), Jason Aronson, Northvale NJ, 1998
    Kritzeck, James (1965). Sons of Abraham: Jews, Christians, and Moslems. Helicon.
    Greenstreet, Wendy (2006). Integrating spirituality in health and social care. Oxford; Seattle, WA: Radcliffe. ISBN 978-1-85775-646-3.
    Johansson, Warren (1990). "Abrahamic Religions". In Dynes, Wayne R.. Encyclopedia of Homosexuality. New York: Garland. ISBN 978-0-8240-6544-7.
    Longton, Joseph (1987–2009). "Fils d'Abraham". In Longton, Jospeh. Fils d'Abraham. S.A. Brepols I. G. P. and CIB Maredsous. ISBN 2-503-82344-0.
    Massignon, Louis, "Les trois prières d'Abraham, père di tuos les croyants", Dieu Vivant, 13, (1949) 20–23.
    Masumian, Farnaz (1995). Life After Death: A study of the afterlife in world religions. Oxford: Oneworld Publications. ISBN 1-85168-074-8.
    Reid, Barbara E. (1996). Choosing the Better Part?: Women in the Gospel of Luke. Liturgical Press.
    Scherman, Nosson, (ed.), Tanakh, Vol.I, The Torah, (Stone edition), Mesorah Publications, Ltd., New York, 2001
    Smith, Jonathan Z. (1998). "Religion, Religions, Religious". In Taylor, Mark C.. Critical Terms for Religious Studies. University of Chicago Press. pp. 269–284. ISBN 978-0-226-79156-2.
    Smith, Peter (2008). An Introduction to the Baha'i Faith. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-0-521-86251-6. Skip I'd like to kind of use your words again. "I've found it interesting that the christians also changes the elements of the Biblical stories it copies. In my view, the Christian fundamentalism ( and Muslim) is a mess from any investigatory viewpoint and is probably nothing resembling what Jesus actually taught." "Fundamental Christianity in general, is not about peace at all, but about warfare, hatred and violence. Again skip here are some "christian quotes" "Not only is homosexuality a sin, but anyone who supports fags is just as guilty as they are. You are both worthy of death." American Fred Phelps leader of the Westboro Baptist Church
    "I don´t know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." Former American President George Bush. "Homosexuals are weak, morally sick wretches." American Jesse Helms who was a Republican Senator. "I'd like for you to take - but your paper might not allow you to do it - and that is to take the Jewish element in the ACLU which is trying to drive Christianity out of the public place, and I'd like to see you do the something objective there. Because the ACLU is made up of a tremendous amount of Jewish attorneys." (Taped interview with the Los Angeles Times, November 14, 1990) BILLY McCORMACK (Director of the Christian Coalition) "There is no such thing as separation of church and state. It is merely a figment of the imagination of infidels." [Taped interview at the Republican National Convention (9/6/84)]W.A. CRISWELL (Senior Pastor of Dallas's First Baptist Church)
    Skip after reading these quotes you have no right to call a Muslim hateful or violent. Who cares what John 1: 12-13 says. That was written too long ago for me to care. We are all a way for the universe to observe itself and you are completely and utterly wrong to say we are not equal. Again your basing your opinions off other people opinions, and are therefore not your opinions
     
  11. Ashlar

    Ashlar Registered User

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    And NO Skipper , if a book is revised or the copyright is updated to keep the copyright in good standing then it can not be repackaged and resold . The Ky Monitor HAS NEVER been in the public domain as the copyright has been kept up to date no matter the year said Monitor being repackaged and resold was printed . The only time anyone's intellectual property becomes "public domain" is when they owner's of said property fail to update their copyright and allows it to lapse . And now you know .

    ETA: And now I am done with you . You are truly blind .
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2012
  12. phulseapple

    phulseapple Premium Member

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    And why is it that you decline? Is it that you did not truly get them in the manner that you described? Must be, because if you were truly the upright person you try to claim you are, you would honor my respectful request. And, by the way, you have yet to see me angry. Anger is an emotion that we Masons are so far above that you profane cannot comprehend it.
     
  13. T.N. Sampson

    T.N. Sampson Guest

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    I already knew, as my post indicated. Cordially, Skip.
     
  14. widows son

    widows son Premium Member

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    Treacherous
     
  15. BryanMaloney

    BryanMaloney Premium Member

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    That's about as wrong as wrong can be. Under US law, there is no such thing as perpetual copyright that can be endlessly renewed. If a work was under copyright before 1978, then it can be renewed for up to another 76 or 95 years (depending on certain details), but no more, under US law. Under US law, all copyrighted works eventually will enter the public domain. Like very many people with no on-the-job working knowledge of intellectual property law, you confuse copyright and trademark law. I've had to work with patent and copyright for years as a biologist.
     
  16. CajunTinMan

    CajunTinMan Registered User

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    That is a mute point if the item in question is less then 76 years old then it is still a violation.
     
  17. T.N. Sampson

    T.N. Sampson Guest

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    I don't think organizations can 'practice' slavery, but individual Masons certainly have. Worse they carried their viewpoints into the political environment. The list of famous Masons includes a large number of racists. More to the point, U.S. Masonry excluded blacks from membership for centuries. Historically, the 'brotherhood of man' did not count for much if a man's skin were black or his faith were Catholic in the eyes of many GL's. Fortunately for us all, those practices have pretty much come to an end.

    Indeed they do, and they are stubborn things that just don't go away. Cordially, Skip.
     
  18. T.N. Sampson

    T.N. Sampson Guest

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    Let's just say that I protect my sources. Cordially, Skip.
     
  19. phulseapple

    phulseapple Premium Member

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    Riiiiight...If that is the story you are going to go with.....
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2012
  20. Traveling Man

    Traveling Man Premium Member

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    And this comes to mind: "And why worry about a speck in your friend's eye when you have a log in your own? ...
     

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