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Causes of the US Civil War
- Thread starter lwdisney
- Start date
I prefer my "Come and Take It."
Sirius
Registered User
I just got the fuzzies.
Well really either...both are Confederate. But we do see the Battle Flag more often, which by the way, does it annoy anyone else when people call the Battle Flag the national flag?
What do yall think of "War Between the States", "War for Southern Independence", "Second American Revolution" or any other you've heard? Technically speaking, "Civil War" is incorrect since the two sides were not fighting for control over the same government. Its as much of a civil war as the American Revolution.
And I love the "Come and Take It" flag, as well as the "Don't Tread on Me", which is why I had those words tattooed.
PS enough about your fuzzies...we don't go for that kind of thing
Nate Riley
Premium Member
Please excuse my ignorance, but what does it mean?
R
RJS
Guest
Yes the are both Confederate but their is a big difference. For instance do you think the battle flag would be able to fly next to the other five flags in front of the Bob Bullock State History Museum? I don't, I bet people would scream for it to come down. Yet people don't seem to have a problem with the Confederate flag flying up there.
+1.
Wingnut
Premium Member
Ive been trying and failing to properly use compasses today but...
The Battle Flag has and always will be a symbol of defiance. No matter where you stand on the North v South discussion one thing can not be denied, many young men on both sides fought bravely and with honor.
The Battle Flag has a very unique and very distinctive look just as the state of Texas does. It wasnt considred to be a symbol of racism until the Klan and skin heads took it up as their banner of bigotry.
At one time in my life I flew it not as a symbol of racism but a symbol of youthful revolt. I did graduate high school in 79 after all! I was a member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans but dropped because of the racism exhibited. I think most people are ignorant of the National Flag of the Confederacy and it hasnt been tied to the racism that the Battle Flag has and is therefore much more accepted and PC.
The Battle Flag has and always will be a symbol of defiance. No matter where you stand on the North v South discussion one thing can not be denied, many young men on both sides fought bravely and with honor.
The Battle Flag has a very unique and very distinctive look just as the state of Texas does. It wasnt considred to be a symbol of racism until the Klan and skin heads took it up as their banner of bigotry.
At one time in my life I flew it not as a symbol of racism but a symbol of youthful revolt. I did graduate high school in 79 after all! I was a member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans but dropped because of the racism exhibited. I think most people are ignorant of the National Flag of the Confederacy and it hasnt been tied to the racism that the Battle Flag has and is therefore much more accepted and PC.
Bryan
Registered User
What ever the reasons may or may not have been for the war between the states the Federal Government of the USA turned it to their advantage in as much as an opportunity to seize more power for its self.
Ever since that time the powers of the federal government have increased to the point to where government owns our Banks, Auto Industry and is making a run to seize control of the Health Care program.
I know this is not exactly on target as far as the "causes" of the Civil War but It is my belief that we are still feeling the effects of it to this very day.
Just for the record: Winn Parish (we have parishes instead of counties in Louisiana) Louisiana not only succeeded from the Union but it also succeeded from the CSA, and the State of Louisiana. We called our selves the "Free State of Winn" However we did manage to send 200 soldiers to fight for the confederacy.
Ever since that time the powers of the federal government have increased to the point to where government owns our Banks, Auto Industry and is making a run to seize control of the Health Care program.
I know this is not exactly on target as far as the "causes" of the Civil War but It is my belief that we are still feeling the effects of it to this very day.
Just for the record: Winn Parish (we have parishes instead of counties in Louisiana) Louisiana not only succeeded from the Union but it also succeeded from the CSA, and the State of Louisiana. We called our selves the "Free State of Winn" However we did manage to send 200 soldiers to fight for the confederacy.
I would like to add that Six Flags Over Texas once was tempted witht the thought of removing the First National flag because someone "finally" figured out what it was. If I am not mistaken a lawsuit was filed, but the judge over ruled the suit because of its historical background in Texas.
This is from the Texas Ordinance of Secession
"In all the non-slave-holding States, in violation of that good faith and comity which should exist between entirely distinct nations, the people have formed themselves into a great sectional party, now strong enough in numbers to control the affairs of each of those States, based upon the unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of the equality of all men, irrespective of race or color--a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of the Divine Law. They demand the abolition of negro slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition of political equality between the white and the negro races, and avow their determination to press on their crusade against us, so long as a negro slave remains in these States. "
Texas Ordinance of Secession
I encourage you to read through the various ordinances of secession.
These letters detail the exact causes and motives behind secession. And, they not only typically mention slavery , but also that "debasing doctrine of the equality of all men."
I was shocked when I led through the ordinances (I searched them each for terms like race, negro, equality, slavery) because I thought the issue was actually debatable.
On "the flag"
I'm going to be less detailed, but I think those versed in the history and controversy can fill in...
My understanding is "the flag" was NOT "the flag" and it was used by one batllation (or platoon)? Nathan Bedford Forrest I believe, often credited and debunked as being the Klan founder.
These are the flags of Texas:
Flags of the Republic of Texas
There is a Confederate flag, but it is not "the flag"
"The flag" became notorious and more publically used via Klan use.
They became popularized in state flags and on state grounds as protest during the civil rights movement.
I think only one state had that symbol in their flag during the confederacy - and the others introduced it to protest "that debasing doctrine."
Only a small part of the Confederacy can say it's about their heritage. Several states, as a matter of fact, reverted their flags and have flown their *actual* confederate flags instead of the one introduced in protest of equal rights.
Why not fly the actual flags? (to which there is next to no protest)
Flags of the Confederate States of America - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"In all the non-slave-holding States, in violation of that good faith and comity which should exist between entirely distinct nations, the people have formed themselves into a great sectional party, now strong enough in numbers to control the affairs of each of those States, based upon the unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of the equality of all men, irrespective of race or color--a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of the Divine Law. They demand the abolition of negro slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition of political equality between the white and the negro races, and avow their determination to press on their crusade against us, so long as a negro slave remains in these States. "
Texas Ordinance of Secession
I encourage you to read through the various ordinances of secession.
These letters detail the exact causes and motives behind secession. And, they not only typically mention slavery , but also that "debasing doctrine of the equality of all men."
I was shocked when I led through the ordinances (I searched them each for terms like race, negro, equality, slavery) because I thought the issue was actually debatable.
On "the flag"
I'm going to be less detailed, but I think those versed in the history and controversy can fill in...
My understanding is "the flag" was NOT "the flag" and it was used by one batllation (or platoon)? Nathan Bedford Forrest I believe, often credited and debunked as being the Klan founder.
These are the flags of Texas:
Flags of the Republic of Texas
There is a Confederate flag, but it is not "the flag"
"The flag" became notorious and more publically used via Klan use.
They became popularized in state flags and on state grounds as protest during the civil rights movement.
I think only one state had that symbol in their flag during the confederacy - and the others introduced it to protest "that debasing doctrine."
Only a small part of the Confederacy can say it's about their heritage. Several states, as a matter of fact, reverted their flags and have flown their *actual* confederate flags instead of the one introduced in protest of equal rights.
Why not fly the actual flags? (to which there is next to no protest)
Flags of the Confederate States of America - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This was types about 10 years ago - the docs should still be available
----
Go to American Civil War - Home. In the Documents: Government section you will find the following:
In the Constitution of the {United} [Confederate] States of America, there are 8 distinct parts dealing with different laws of slavery.
Jefferson Davis' first message to the Confederate Congress:
Slave is mentioned 23 times from beginning to end of his speech.
Jefferson Davis' farewell to US Senate:
Mentions slavery throughout.
Georgia's declaration of secession:
The word slave appears 36 times throughout the length of the document.
Mississippi declaration of secession:
The word slave appears 7 times throughout the length of the document.
Including :
"Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. "
South Carolina declaration of secession:
The word slave appears 18 times throughout the length of the document.
Texas declaration of secession:
The word slave appears 22 times throughout the length of the document.
Including:
"In all the non-slave-holding States, in violation of that good faith and comity which should exist between entirely distinct nations, the people have formed themselves into a great sectional party, now strong enough in numbers to control the affairs of each of those States, based upon an unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color-- a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of Divine Law."
----
Go to American Civil War - Home. In the Documents: Government section you will find the following:
In the Constitution of the {United} [Confederate] States of America, there are 8 distinct parts dealing with different laws of slavery.
Jefferson Davis' first message to the Confederate Congress:
Slave is mentioned 23 times from beginning to end of his speech.
Jefferson Davis' farewell to US Senate:
Mentions slavery throughout.
Georgia's declaration of secession:
The word slave appears 36 times throughout the length of the document.
Mississippi declaration of secession:
The word slave appears 7 times throughout the length of the document.
Including :
"Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. "
South Carolina declaration of secession:
The word slave appears 18 times throughout the length of the document.
Texas declaration of secession:
The word slave appears 22 times throughout the length of the document.
Including:
"In all the non-slave-holding States, in violation of that good faith and comity which should exist between entirely distinct nations, the people have formed themselves into a great sectional party, now strong enough in numbers to control the affairs of each of those States, based upon an unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color-- a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of Divine Law."
Funny, the referral to the Articals of Secession. The key point missing in the argument is the fact that the Union didn't end slavery until many years after the end of the War in 1864.
The story behind the "battle flag" is thus: At the begining of the War the CSA used a flag called the "Bonnie Blue" (solid blue color, single five-pointed star centered); the Confederate congress approved the "First National" (circular star pattern over solid blue canton, and alternating red & white horizontal bars) as the National flag also known as the "stars and bars"; it was this flag initially carried into battle. However the FN caused some confusion in the heat of battle accross the lines due to the similarity to the then US flag. A new flag had to be created in order to better tell the difference between enemies during battle thus creating the "battle flag" (blue X over red background with stars equally positioned within the blue field). All CSA units carried a version of this flag into battle along with the FN.
Most of you are already during the time of the Battle of the Wilderness a second flag was created for the CSA. This flag incorporated the "battle flag" into the canton over a solid white background known as the "Second National". Its first use was to drape the coffin of General "Stonewall" Jackson. Of course this flag also created some issues during battle becasue of its white background appearing as a flag of surrender.
Close to the close of the war the SN was modified and a solid red bar was included on its flying edge. This "Third National" was only briefly used by the CSA.
Also in closing, the association between General Forrest the Klan and the CSA is something that happend after the close of the War. I assure you that the actions of Forrest post-war is an embarassment to those of us who hold our Southen values and roots dear. It is an utter disgrace to see what modern hate groups have done to MY heritage and its flags. It is because of people like him that make people in today's society give individuals like me the evil eye when we chose to fly OUR flags. Of which my extensive collection contains only Artillery "battle flag", all others are local state/town flags, army departments, or others.
The story behind the "battle flag" is thus: At the begining of the War the CSA used a flag called the "Bonnie Blue" (solid blue color, single five-pointed star centered); the Confederate congress approved the "First National" (circular star pattern over solid blue canton, and alternating red & white horizontal bars) as the National flag also known as the "stars and bars"; it was this flag initially carried into battle. However the FN caused some confusion in the heat of battle accross the lines due to the similarity to the then US flag. A new flag had to be created in order to better tell the difference between enemies during battle thus creating the "battle flag" (blue X over red background with stars equally positioned within the blue field). All CSA units carried a version of this flag into battle along with the FN.
Most of you are already during the time of the Battle of the Wilderness a second flag was created for the CSA. This flag incorporated the "battle flag" into the canton over a solid white background known as the "Second National". Its first use was to drape the coffin of General "Stonewall" Jackson. Of course this flag also created some issues during battle becasue of its white background appearing as a flag of surrender.
Close to the close of the war the SN was modified and a solid red bar was included on its flying edge. This "Third National" was only briefly used by the CSA.
Also in closing, the association between General Forrest the Klan and the CSA is something that happend after the close of the War. I assure you that the actions of Forrest post-war is an embarassment to those of us who hold our Southen values and roots dear. It is an utter disgrace to see what modern hate groups have done to MY heritage and its flags. It is because of people like him that make people in today's society give individuals like me the evil eye when we chose to fly OUR flags. Of which my extensive collection contains only Artillery "battle flag", all others are local state/town flags, army departments, or others.
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Bryan
Registered User
Very very true.
There were plenty of nasty things done after the war by all parties involved. Things that should never have happened.