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Deist or Irreligious Freemasons

SimonM

Registered User
Are u saying because u r Australian you dont believe in the authority of the US Constitution? what about if unwere visiting the US? Would u follow our laws? To me that is believing in the constitution.....

I thought that was a strange requirement as well. Of course the constitution as a legal document is something that exist. That’s not a question of belief. I interpreted it as a belief in the philosophical ideas expressed in the constitution, but as a foreigner I would not be able to give a good explanation of those ideas.

Do I misunderstand that requirement?
 

Bloke

Premium Member
No, not really. The Constitution constrains the government from interfering in religion, it does not constrain private organizations from having rules.

Nice point....

However :) ... here Freemasonry stays out of religion, and the status of the Bible is a question of Religious Doctrine, hence it is strange to me to see that creep into the Craft, but I also well understand the more Christian character of Freemasonry in some American States.... make no mistake, I'm not attacking anyone over this point ( just in case some might think I am) but my concept of ( regular) Freemasonry is a diverse group of men, many from diverse religions, all with the belief in GAOTU but leaving the details of that to each Brother..... even if you narrow the VSL to the Bible, which version (translation) does your GL choose ? ( a rhetorical question best left to the Church each man belongs to or his own heart as his conscience guides him, not a GL as the GL is then not only in the domain of religion but religious doctrine IMHO ).

I hope people see where I am coming from and am close to hearing myself tell me to shut up cause I'm talking religion...
 

Bloke

Premium Member
I thought that was a strange requirement as well. Of course the constitution as a legal document is something that exist. That’s not a question of belief. I interpreted it as a belief in the philosophical ideas expressed in the constitution, but as a foreigner I would not be able to give a good explanation of those ideas.

Do I misunderstand that requirement?

I don't think that one is strange cause in our ritual we're told to obey the laws of the country in which we reside and in the US the Constitution is at the basis of that
 

SimonM

Registered User
I don't think that one is strange cause in our ritual we're told to obey the laws of the country in which we reside and in the US the Constitution is at the basis of that

What I’m trying to say is that asking if you have a belief in it feels weird. If the question would be framed something like “do you swear to follow the principles and laws outlined in the constitution” I would have no problem with it. But now I have to believe in it? Perhaps it’s just that English is not my native language but for me that wording implies something more than just follow the laws of the nation.
 

pointwithinacircle2

Rapscallion
Premium Member
A study of logic tells me that no one else can have my feelings, that they are mine alone. While you my think that you understand my feelings because you have had feelings similar to mine, you cannot understand my feelings with 100% accuracy because you cannot experience my feelings. In the same way that humans cannot feel each others feelings, they cannot know each others beliefs. A man may think he understands another mans beliefs, but since he cannot experience those beliefs he will always be limited in his ability to understand them.

Therefore, each man is the only person who can say whether his beliefs meet the guidelines laid out by Freemasonry. This is an important point to me because I have pondered long and hard on it during my Masonic career. This principle explains to me why we are able to sit comfortably in Lodge with men of different faiths. Because no matter what name a man calls his God, The meaning that God has to the individual can be known only by him. Therefore I recognize that I am incapable of judging a mans relationship to God because I can not truly know it.
 

Bloke

Premium Member
If it were possible to use the "plumbline" in a moral sense it would be possible to measure the trueness of any human to God.
I hear what you are saying and can picture the mental image you're evoking - but move on that line ( in 2nd WTs) and it's all about behaviours not faith ( and potential result of that behaviour)
 

Ripcord22A

Site Benefactor
Depends on which hand u use. If i use my right hand rotating things clock wise is more comfortable and if I use my left its counter clockwise...as that is the natural way the wrist rotates.

Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry mobile app
 
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jermy Bell

Registered User
My great grandmother was Roman catholic, and later in life fell from the church,reasons unknown, we were taught just because our family faith was Roman catholic, didnt mean that we couldn't explore other religions and faiths. But was also taught that one does not have to belong to any one certain faith or church in order to belive in the one true deity. And that you lived a clean and upstanding life that you would gain entrance into the kingdom above, now with that last part being said, it almost fits the apron ceremony, that you keep your apron unstained from the world.and keep your 4 fold duty.
 

Canadian Paul

Registered User
Bro. Cook said : "Two different issues arise. 1. Not believing in a revealed text does not prohibit taking an obligation on such. 2. In some jurisdictions, membership would be prohibited. For instance, Texas requires on its petition for the degrees a belief in the the divine authenticity of the volume of sacred law (and the US Constitution). http://grandlodgeoftexas.org/assets/uploads/2015/10/26.pdf"

The application form linked above contains this question

:15. Do you believe in the Constitution of the United States? ______________________________________________ (Yes or No)

What exactly does it mean by 'believe'? Is it claiming the U.S. Constitution has divine authority? My Grand Lodge (Scotland) requires that I should 'pay due obedience to the law of any state in which (I) reside' but adds "and must never be remiss in the allegiance due to the sovereign of (my) native land.'
('Aims and Relationships of the Craft - Item 5)

So if living in Texas I am obliged to obey its laws but not to forget that I am a Canadian and not an American. For example, I respect the American flag and what it stands for, but could not, in all conscience, pledge allegiance to it. Does that mean that, if living and working in Texas, I could not affiliate with a Texas lodge?
 

dfreybur

Premium Member
Interesting question on the pledge. In California I know a lodge that asks US citizens to pledge at opening.

In Texas we pledge both the US and Texas flags but I have not checked if there is a rule that mandates it. There are enough citizens of other countries there is likely a ruling on the topic.
 

Ripcord22A

Site Benefactor
Bro. Cook said : "Two different issues arise. 1. Not believing in a revealed text does not prohibit taking an obligation on such. 2. In some jurisdictions, membership would be prohibited. For instance, Texas requires on its petition for the degrees a belief in the the divine authenticity of the volume of sacred law (and the US Constitution). http://grandlodgeoftexas.org/assets/uploads/2015/10/26.pdf"

The application form linked above contains this question

:15. Do you believe in the Constitution of the United States? ______________________________________________ (Yes or No)

What exactly does it mean by 'believe'? Is it claiming the U.S. Constitution has divine authority? My Grand Lodge (Scotland) requires that I should 'pay due obedience to the law of any state in which (I) reside' but adds "and must never be remiss in the allegiance due to the sovereign of (my) native land.'
('Aims and Relationships of the Craft - Item 5)

So if living in Texas I am obliged to obey its laws but not to forget that I am a Canadian and not an American. For example, I respect the American flag and what it stands for, but could not, in all conscience, pledge allegiance to it. Does that mean that, if living and working in Texas, I could not affiliate with a Texas lodge?
Im gonna go way out in left field and say that if u moved to the US for purposes of living and working indefinately and you couldn't pledge alegience to your adopted home id kindly ask u go back wjere ya came from....lol.....but seriously if ur just there temporarily i don't see why it would be a problem. We have a 2x PM in my lodge here who is a Canadian citizen but has permanent residency here and stands places his hand over his heart and says the pledge every meeting...oh and he was initiated in Texas

Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry mobile app
 
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Bloke

Premium Member
Im gonna go way out in left field and say that if u moved to the US for purposes of living and working indefinately and you couldn't pledge alegience to your adopted home id kindly ask u go back wjere ya came from....lol.....but seriously if ur just there temporarily i don't see why it would be a problem. We have a 2x PM in my lodge here who is a Canadian citizen but has permanent residency here and stands places his hand over his heart and says the pledge every meeting...oh and he was initiated in Texas

Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry mobile app

I think if you are not willing to live under the laws of a western democracy like American, then yes, it's not a place you have the right to reside in or visit.
 

RhushidaK

Registered User
Interesting question on the pledge. In California I know a lodge that asks US citizens to pledge at opening.

In Texas we pledge both the US and Texas flags but I have not checked if there is a rule that mandates it. There are enough citizens of other countries there is likely a ruling on the topic.

Here in India, (or at least in my lodge; don't know about others), we do sing the national anthem at the end of every lodge meeting. That would be the Indian equivalent of pledging your allegiance to the flag in USA. So I guess we're not that different after all.. :D
 

dfreybur

Premium Member
Here in India, (or at least in my lodge; don't know about others), we do sing the national anthem at the end of every lodge meeting. That would be the Indian equivalent of pledging your allegiance to the flag in USA. So I guess we're not that different after all.. :D

To me it is the same concept. Others disagree. That's how politics works so we avoid discussing it in lodge.

The pledge is not a part of a degree ceremony. It's a part of the opening. In one of my jurisdictions it is done before the opening starts so it isn't even a part of the ceremonial work - A technicality. I would not even notice if a Brother stood silently saluting.

One of my early mentors said something like this -

I'm happy to salute the Mexican flag if they do that when I'm visiting. I'm happy to salute any flag of whatever country I'm visiting. I'll salute and remain silent.
 

CLewey44

Registered User
Are there any deists or irreligious, regular Freemasons here? If so, what do you have as VSL while swearing? And how do you see them as in general?

Note: Irreligious here would denote Freemasons who believe in a god, but do not follow any religion.

For me personally, as a Mason, I have respect for all religions and if I were in a lodge in Istanbul, Delhi, Jerusalem, NYC or wherever, that VSL would be sworn upon with equal fervency and sincerity.
 

Warrior1256

Site Benefactor
A blank book is specifically prohibited in some jurisdictions, as it cannot contain the revealed word of God.
Interesting, this had never occurred to me. Will check this out in my lodges as a matter of curiosity.
I feel im both: deist since i belive in the Grand architect and do not follow any dogma. Irreligious because i dont follow any but, i respect and honor all believes.
I like this.
 

88DAM88

Registered User
I would posit that a blank book could constitute a VSL.

Many Masons believe scientific texts are also inspired and enlightened words revealing Sacred principles. For many Masons, Natural Law and Sacred Law are inseparable. The word Geometry, after all, was for the longest time, well known and generally accepted as a synonym of the word Masonry.

Masonry definitely has room for conscious and enlightened men of science and for those for whom any thing contemplated can shed light, educate, illustrate and speak "volumes" about the Order and Sacredness of the Universe and Life. A Mason who believes in One Supreme Being may be a Mason who believes in Oneness or wholeness or the Supreme Reality of Indivisibility and Unity of all. One may see the physical world as both container and manifestation of Natural or Sacred Law, echoing Voltaire "God is an infinite sphere whose center is everywhere, and whose circumference is nowhere,” and Blaise Pascal, “Nature is an infinite sphere whose center is everywhere, and whose circumference is nowhere.” One may see Nature and Natural Law as a revealed manifestation of God's Law.

Too many Masons only think of the word volume in one sense, however, it's secondary definition may also apply

Vol·ume
[ˈvälyəm, ˈvälˌyo͞om]
NOUN
  1. a book forming part of a work or series.
  2. the amount of space that a substance or object occupies, or that is enclosed within a container, especially when great:

"Emptiness" is also a great concept for Buddhist and Taoist Brethren, which does not denote the nullity nor Nihilism that many unstudied in these philosophies or the practices of meditation fear, but an indefinable, unnameable quality to God or Nature, far beyond our ken and limited understanding. It is a position of accepting vulnerability, fallibility, not-knowing and submission in opposition to bull-headedness, vanity, narcissistic, know-it-all bluster that often accompanies those who over-identify with the Ego.

Sa·cred
[ˈsākrəd]
ADJECTIVE
  1. connected with God (or the gods) or dedicated to a religious purpose and so deserving veneration:

Although I personally think an acorn or a leaf would be a more elegant adornment befitting the altar than a blank book, a blank book would, by it's very composition of paper and glue, still be comprised of manifest laws and the study of it would reveal order and interconnection. And, if the Mason delving into it's mystery were capable of applying the secrets therein to his life to better it and thus benefit all mankind by it's communication, it would be a great and admirable and laudable undertaking.

I believe that Masonry values education and illumination and life-long learning and betterment of each man specifically, and mankind in general. This great and honorable fraternity could hope for nothing more than to attract the most educated and intelligent men into its brotherhood. The great destiny of mankind is one of Unity and Order, Peace and Tranquility, Fraternity and Harmony, thus it is understood that through education and illumination Man might achieve a state beyond divisive, tribal, discriminatory ideas or sectarian religion and predatory or party politics (considered by many Masons to be ignorant, intolerant and tyrannical darknesses in which any enlightened man would not long dwell), perhaps one day needing neither as guides.

Law
[lô]
NOUN
  1. (the law)
    the system of rules that a particular country or community recognizes as regulating the actions of its members and may enforce by the imposition of penalties:
    "they were taken to court for breaking the law" ·
    [more]

  2. a statement of fact, deduced from observation, to the effect that a particular natural or scientific phenomenon always occurs if certain conditions are present:
    "the second law of thermodynamics"
 

Elexir

Registered User
I understand your proposition.

However I would argue that becuse of the nature of the masons work is of spiritual nature a belif and understanding of a higher power is needed and not just scientific understanding of the outside.

The breaking down is intressting but in the end pointless unless we want to asume that masonry is 100% litteral.
The law that is refered to in the VSL not only gives the rules to religon (as a lawbook do) but it also provides comfort and for a lack of better word, initiation into life.
 

Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
I would posit that a blank book could constitute a VSL.

Many Masons believe scientific texts are also inspired and enlightened words revealing Sacred principles. For many Masons, Natural Law and Sacred Law are inseparable. The word Geometry, after all, was for the longest time, well known and generally accepted as a synonym of the word Masonry.

Masonry definitely has room for conscious and enlightened men of science and for those for whom any thing contemplated can shed light, educate, illustrate and speak "volumes" about the Order and Sacredness of the Universe and Life. A Mason who believes in One Supreme Being may be a Mason who believes in Oneness or wholeness or the Supreme Reality of Indivisibility and Unity of all. One may see the physical world as both container and manifestation of Natural or Sacred Law, echoing Voltaire "God is an infinite sphere whose center is everywhere, and whose circumference is nowhere,” and Blaise Pascal, “Nature is an infinite sphere whose center is everywhere, and whose circumference is nowhere.” One may see Nature and Natural Law as a revealed manifestation of God's Law.

Too many Masons only think of the word volume in one sense, however, it's secondary definition may also apply

Vol·ume
[ˈvälyəm, ˈvälˌyo͞om]
NOUN
  1. a book forming part of a work or series.
  2. the amount of space that a substance or object occupies, or that is enclosed within a container, especially when great:

"Emptiness" is also a great concept for Buddhist and Taoist Brethren, which does not denote the nullity nor Nihilism that many unstudied in these philosophies or the practices of meditation fear, but an indefinable, unnameable quality to God or Nature, far beyond our ken and limited understanding. It is a position of accepting vulnerability, fallibility, not-knowing and submission in opposition to bull-headedness, vanity, narcissistic, know-it-all bluster that often accompanies those who over-identify with the Ego.

Sa·cred
[ˈsākrəd]
ADJECTIVE
  1. connected with God (or the gods) or dedicated to a religious purpose and so deserving veneration:

Although I personally think an acorn or a leaf would be a more elegant adornment befitting the altar than a blank book, a blank book would, by it's very composition of paper and glue, still be comprised of manifest laws and the study of it would reveal order and interconnection. And, if the Mason delving into it's mystery were capable of applying the secrets therein to his life to better it and thus benefit all mankind by it's communication, it would be a great and admirable and laudable undertaking.

I believe that Masonry values education and illumination and life-long learning and betterment of each man specifically, and mankind in general. This great and honorable fraternity could hope for nothing more than to attract the most educated and intelligent men into its brotherhood. The great destiny of mankind is one of Unity and Order, Peace and Tranquility, Fraternity and Harmony, thus it is understood that through education and illumination Man might achieve a state beyond divisive, tribal, discriminatory ideas or sectarian religion and predatory or party politics (considered by many Masons to be ignorant, intolerant and tyrannical darknesses in which any enlightened man would not long dwell), perhaps one day needing neither as guides.

Law
[lô]
NOUN
  1. (the law)
    the system of rules that a particular country or community recognizes as regulating the actions of its members and may enforce by the imposition of penalties:
    "they were taken to court for breaking the law" ·
    [more]

  2. a statement of fact, deduced from observation, to the effect that a particular natural or scientific phenomenon always occurs if certain conditions are present:
    "the second law of thermodynamics"
My ruling was to the contrary; that a blank text is not the revealed word of G-d.

Further, utilizing the definitions above, a blank page would appear to be the antithesis of connection; demonstrating the lack of connection.

It would also promote a single Man's definition of what should be on those pages above that of Deity. It is the opposite of the humble, reverent, childlike attitude we are to assume upon entering our Masonic endeavors. We are to submit our will to G-d's, not tell him what His will should be.
 

dfreybur

Premium Member
I would posit that a blank book could constitute a VSL.

I get the idea behind the approach. I have two issues with the approach.

1) If it's blank it does not describe laws. As such it fails an important part of the concept. A couple of years ago there was a case of a Brother who asked that an Eagle Feather be used in his obligations folded into a book so the forms could be observed. At least a feather is not blank.

2) Blank books tend to be used as objections to non-blank books. Outside context and the attitude they carry matter.

I think you miss the point on science. Science is not laws. Science is a process that searches for laws. Done right science answers those questions which religion does not ask. Done right religion answers those questions which science does not ask. Science is not a matter of faith. Religion and science overlap through imagination not through faith.
 
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