Does Purgatory Exist?

Discussion in 'Philosophy, Religion and Spirituality' started by Blake Bowden, Dec 15, 2009.

  1. K.S.

    K.S. Registered User

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    I can see your point, brother Jonesville Texas, but, you can't really "hate" on Catholics for their belief's simply because they are not your own.
    Our country was founded on freedoms and liberties, to be free and practice the religion of ones choice. If I misread your entry, I apologize, but I believe everyone's religious beliefs are their own and shouldn't be infracted upon, religious arguments never play out well. :cool:
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2012
  2. BryanMaloney

    BryanMaloney Premium Member

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    I'm Eastern Orthodox, we accept Maccabees and reject purgatory. It's late, so I'll post more on this, later. Suffice to say that a lot of our explanations hinge on "God is bigger than our tiny minds."
     
  3. Blake Bowden

    Blake Bowden Administrator Staff Member

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    Great discussion. I enjoy the different viewpoints.
     
  4. jwhoff

    jwhoff Premium Member

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    Ah for a more close-minded crowd of any persuasion.

    Now there's were you can make serious money selling holy books. popular interpretations, and weapons ... in the same strip center.


    :sneaky2:
     
  5. RedTemplar

    RedTemplar Johnny Joe Combs Premium Member

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    I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior. So, it does not really matter to me if Hell is hot, Purgatory exists, or if its a band of virgins or Virginians that lead me safely home. If it happens to be Virginians, the Statler Brothers' great great great grandchildren will do fine. I wish that everybody would accept Christ, but, if they don't, I still respect their view and hope they still respect mine. I pray that we all get along peacefully.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2012
  6. jwhoff

    jwhoff Premium Member

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    So Mote it Be!

    There's something to be said about longevity there Brother Red; something indeed!

    :wink:
     
  7. BryanMaloney

    BryanMaloney Premium Member

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    The Orthodox do not accept the doctrine of purgatory (and appendant doctrunes, such as transferrable merit of the saints and indulgences). The current Patriarch of Constantinople stated that purgatory is “among inter-correlated theories, unwitnessed in the Bible or in the Ancient Church that are not acceptable within Orthodox doctrine”. However, we do accept that prayers for the dead are beneficial to them. Regarding this issue, Kallistos Ware wrote “Of course we do not understand exactly how such prayer benefits the departed. Yet equally, when we intercede for people still alive, we cannot explain how this intercessions assists them. We know from our personal experience that prayer for others is effective, and so we continue to practice it.” In part, we support this matter by reminding ourselves that our God is the “God of the living, not of the dead” and that simultaneously He is the God of Abraham. Thus, if, as Christ has said, God is not the “God of the dead” and He is still the God of Abraham, then in some way we do not understand, the faithful, such as Abraham are still “alive in God”, or as we put it regarding fellow Christians “alive in Christ”. Thus, while they have “fallen asleep”, they are not under full death.

    However, the most complete answer to purgatory came at the false council of Ferrara-Florence, when the faithful Orthodox hierarchs responded to this Latin doctrine. In that response, the gist was that the words quoted from the book of Maccabees only show that some sins may be forgiven after death; but by what means, nothing was known for certain. In any case, what has forgiveness of sins to do with punishment in purgatory? Only one of these can happen: either punishment or forgiveness, not both at once. That response went on for some length, refuting point by point the Latin doctrine.

    It may be true that the words of some Orthodox teachers over the centuries could be interpreted to agree with purgatory, but we do not accept the infallibility of any single mortal teacher.

    Regarding the fate of those whom the Evangelicals like to call “unreached”--we leave that up to God and do not have the pridefulness to presume He will condemn or save them. An Orthodox teacher (Theophan the Recluse) once wrote “Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins.”
     
  8. Star Mztyk

    Star Mztyk Registered User

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    This thread is about swallowing camels and straining at knats......because ...I think that Masonry requires a monolithic belief.....and the VSL of your choice(usually).

    My take on this is that there is a Judgment.....and this happens after each life (to include reincarnationist). This judgment in my personal belief is Self-induced....and then there is a service here or there IN Spirit to rectify the right/wrong/experience to your Souls Intent.

    .....Finally I hope the GAOTU has no earthly secular preferance....and weird other whatever Belief/As it is/TakeitOrLeaveit systems of Truth in Any Galaxy that separates and cleaves us as stones to be cast in some Cosmic rubbish heap.

    If purgatory is about judgment...then judge not less you be judged.
     
  9. Star Mztyk

    Star Mztyk Registered User

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    ...sorry ....monothiestic
     
  10. Pscyclepath

    Pscyclepath Premium Member

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    While checking one of the references above, I was reminded in an adjoining section: ""For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

    For scarcely a righteous man will one die; yet peradventure for a good man, some would even dare to die. But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more, then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." (Romans 5:6-9)

    This scripture argues against the idea that some are predestined for salvation while others are predestined for damnation... but that salvation is a gracious gift from God, available to all.

    I'm not a Catholic, (and I probably wouldn't be a very good one if I were, having some doubts about some of the theology the Church has added onto the Gospels over the centuries), but a major argument -- for me at least -- is where Christ, suffering on the cross, told the repentant thief, "... today shalt thou be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:43). That doesn't leave much time to be hanging around in Purgatory.
     
  11. Michael Hatley

    Michael Hatley Premium Member

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    Bit of a coincidence, I've made Purgatory an area of study. I recommend this book:

    Amazon.com: The Birth of Purgatory (9780226470832): Jacques Le Goff, Arthur Goldhammer: Books

    It sits on my bedside table at the moment, along with the Monitor.

    It is a scholarly look at the history and origin of Purgatory. I think it would be very edifying to anyone who thinks of themselves as a seeker.

    To be direct about it, I believe that most all of religion is allegory. If people choose to take it literally, so be it. But the problem I have with that is not the same as the atheists, who sneer down their noses at lack of scientific method or whatever.

    My issue is that there are wonderful lessons to be gleaned from all religions. From the Bhagavad Gita to the words of the Dalai Lama, there is wisdom to be found in so many places. Things that ring true and can help better our lives. It is when we try to force ourselves to accept one system wholesale, outright, and literally that we cut ourselves off from more wisdom than we gain.

    That is just my opinion though. At the end of the day whatever way makes a man better, and by better I mean more benevolent towards his fellow man and more at peace with himself.
     
  12. Bird_n_hand

    Bird_n_hand Registered User

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    To God the concept of time does not exist, he operates outside of space and time. Almost as if I were existence is in his mind. He dwells on us. And so we exist. We exist for his pleasure alone. That being said how can we begin to conceptualize how great this world we live in is. Can we put a ruler to it so to speak. Purgatory is a place to wait for the final judgement. But waiting plays by the rules of time. Must we wait an hour. A year. A decade or several millennia? As one of your brothers put it. We all have a spark of the divine in us. The very breath we breath is proof of that. When the body perishes the soul lives on in eternity. Yet what does eternity really mean? Is it based on the concept that a linear timeline goes on into forever or is it something outside our common understanding of time? Maybe just maybe our soul is divine and eternal. And maybe our mortal selves are living in purgatory now. We are doomed to repeat this karmic cycle till god is done playing with his shiny toys idk. Maybe the thought of reincarnation is real and the thought of an individual soul that we believe we have is just a copy of our fore father's.
    I know the point I'm trying to make seems like their is no point. But their is. Somethings are just to grand for us to understand so the real question is. Why worry about what we cannot change. And If we cannot change the divine maybe we should focus on changing what we can. Ourselves.
    Much love and respect
     
  13. JamestheJust

    JamestheJust Registered User

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    >Purgatory is a place to wait for the final judgement. ...We all have a spark of the divine in us.

    So does the Divine make a final judgement of the divine spark? Is that like cutting off a finger?

    >And maybe our mortal selves are living in purgatory now.

    That thought had crossed my mind. How would we test that? Would we see instant (or at least quick) karma?
     
  14. Bird_n_hand

    Bird_n_hand Registered User

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    I feel like the only immortal part of us is the soul. So when the body passes the soul ceases to live in its mortal prison and no longer bound by time, as for us living in purgatory right now. Something to ask God, maybe he will let you know then you cam share your findings. It's something I've considered as well and proof is finite. It's all speculation but if purgatory is a place to wait for judgement then that's exactly what we are doing now. Waiting to meet our maker and finding pleasant distractions in the mean time
     
  15. JamestheJust

    JamestheJust Registered User

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    >Waiting to meet our maker and finding pleasant distractions in the mean time

    Lets hope that our maker did not send us out with a task to perform. S/he may not be too pleased if the task is not accomplished.

    On the other hand, perhaps humans are purely decorative.
     
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  16. Bird_n_hand

    Bird_n_hand Registered User

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    As a Christian who has read a number of bibles. Angels sing in heaven praises to the most high and it pleases him. I don't know what I can do that would please him. Offer him less then holy gift. Idk but I like the notion of me being a decoration hahaha that sounds simple enough even by my standards :D
     
  17. JamestheJust

    JamestheJust Registered User

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    >I like the notion of me being a decoration

    Is the human race is the only species with nothing to contribute to the planetary ecosystem?
     
  18. LK600

    LK600 Premium Member

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    Far from it actually. Our purpose was made clear from the foundations...

    Genesis 1:28(KJV)

    28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

    Genesis 2:15 (NIV)
    15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.
     
    Warrior1256 likes this.
  19. Bird_n_hand

    Bird_n_hand Registered User

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    You make good points. And something I've read over many times you've highlighted so thank you. In gen 1:28 He did make that pretty clear
    I'm some parts of genesis I've never took to literally. For instance I always though that the tree of life was my family tree. But if my purpose is to be fruitful and to subdue the earth, how can I do that when I'm forced to work to support myself and family. Is my calling then to be a farmer
     
  20. JamestheJust

    JamestheJust Registered User

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    >and replenish the earth

    The human race has not done well at that, but now seems to be trying harder.

    If that command is accepted, does that mean that Earth humans have no business traveling to other planets?

    Not all Earth human accept the God of Israel as their God. Perhaps they have separate tasks.
     

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