I would like to know who is on this committee.
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Fraternal Relations
- Thread starter Blake Bowden
- Start date
Re: Fraternal Relations Committee (Grand Lodge of
It'd be nice to have it online for future reference.
My Freemasonry HD
It'd be nice to have it online for future reference.
My Freemasonry HD
crono782
Premium Member
Re: Fraternal Relations Committee (Grand Lodge of
I've long withheld my thoughts on the issue, but here is a brief synopsis. I am all for recognition + visitation. This is the 21st century after all and the racial division needs to be put to rest. HOWEVER, my only qualm with visitation rights IN TEXAS is in regards to the PHA ritual work and the state of PHA clandestine lodges here. I cannot remember the specifics of the first point so that one may be a moot point, but basically, GLoTX lodges are rather proud of their mouth-to-ear work and IIRC, MWPHGLoTX lodges use ciphers given to members. I could see this potentially being a problem. The other part IS a major obstacle in my opinion and probably one of the greatest barriers to visitation. I know it's supposed to be as simple as a dues card and ID in texas, but it is conceivable that the GLoTX my not be willing to deal with the scenario of so many clandy masons that may try to visit (though how many actually would is anybody's guess). Now, having said all that, I don't think those things *should* disqualify visitation, but if I were in a position to cast a vote for visitation, I'd want some rules laid down in regards to the first and a definite plan of action in regards to dealing with the second.
Although, from word of mouth, it sounds like GLoTX is pushing for this more than MWPHGLoTX so the former is not entirely in the position of making provisos to the latter. I admit the aforementioned scenarios will probably be a rarity, so perhaps it is best to grant visitation first and deal with any possible fallout later (perhaps the joint visitation will even help to pressure clandy GLs to either phase out or heal, who knows)
I've long withheld my thoughts on the issue, but here is a brief synopsis. I am all for recognition + visitation. This is the 21st century after all and the racial division needs to be put to rest. HOWEVER, my only qualm with visitation rights IN TEXAS is in regards to the PHA ritual work and the state of PHA clandestine lodges here. I cannot remember the specifics of the first point so that one may be a moot point, but basically, GLoTX lodges are rather proud of their mouth-to-ear work and IIRC, MWPHGLoTX lodges use ciphers given to members. I could see this potentially being a problem. The other part IS a major obstacle in my opinion and probably one of the greatest barriers to visitation. I know it's supposed to be as simple as a dues card and ID in texas, but it is conceivable that the GLoTX my not be willing to deal with the scenario of so many clandy masons that may try to visit (though how many actually would is anybody's guess). Now, having said all that, I don't think those things *should* disqualify visitation, but if I were in a position to cast a vote for visitation, I'd want some rules laid down in regards to the first and a definite plan of action in regards to dealing with the second.
Although, from word of mouth, it sounds like GLoTX is pushing for this more than MWPHGLoTX so the former is not entirely in the position of making provisos to the latter. I admit the aforementioned scenarios will probably be a rarity, so perhaps it is best to grant visitation first and deal with any possible fallout later (perhaps the joint visitation will even help to pressure clandy GLs to either phase out or heal, who knows)
BroBook
Premium Member
Re: Fraternal Relations Committee (Grand Lodge of
Question; has anyone ever ran into a man pretending to be a man and could not tell that this man was not a man? Oh I mean the heart thing.
My Freemasonry HD
Question; has anyone ever ran into a man pretending to be a man and could not tell that this man was not a man? Oh I mean the heart thing.
My Freemasonry HD
crono782
Premium Member
Re: Fraternal Relations Committee (Grand Lodge of
Perhaps I should just clarify that I don't think anybody actually expects hordes of clandestine masons to flood their lodges, but some may take issue on principle. On the flip side, nothing wagered, nothing gained.
Your question confuses me. Is it meant to be sarcasm or is the meaning just escaping me?
Perhaps I should just clarify that I don't think anybody actually expects hordes of clandestine masons to flood their lodges, but some may take issue on principle. On the flip side, nothing wagered, nothing gained.
KyPastMaster
Registered User
Re: Fraternal Relations Committee (Grand Lodge of
If some are members of other forums there are threads on this very subject as per what you described in your previous post has and does happen . Clandestine Masons sitting in regular/recognized lodges because they were not vetted properly so I see your point . Or were vetted properly and turned away .
ETA * PHA Masons would be surprised at how little many "MS" Masons know about PHO and other clandestine lodges . Not all Masons spend their time on Masonic forums ( actually , I have visited to "keep up to date" but almost never posted to any of these forums ). I know I have received looks of confusion when I have brought up this discussion of differences between regular PHA and all the clandies numerous times in my lodges . Some would see a dues card for PHO (or some other ) and take it for granted that it was PHA . If we were to suddenly have visitation , many would be confused by all this .
If some are members of other forums there are threads on this very subject as per what you described in your previous post has and does happen . Clandestine Masons sitting in regular/recognized lodges because they were not vetted properly so I see your point . Or were vetted properly and turned away .
ETA * PHA Masons would be surprised at how little many "MS" Masons know about PHO and other clandestine lodges . Not all Masons spend their time on Masonic forums ( actually , I have visited to "keep up to date" but almost never posted to any of these forums ). I know I have received looks of confusion when I have brought up this discussion of differences between regular PHA and all the clandies numerous times in my lodges . Some would see a dues card for PHO (or some other ) and take it for granted that it was PHA . If we were to suddenly have visitation , many would be confused by all this .
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dfreybur
Premium Member
Re: Fraternal Relations Committee (Grand Lodge of
This applies to all states so it's not unique to Texas. I remember in California there was nearly a year of delay to get a list of recognized PHA lodges to us. By that time we'd already checked out and offered a local PHA lodge to become a tenant in our building. They'd asked a couple of years before about it knowing that recognition was on the way.
In theory we didn't even have to wait. Our temple corporations can rent to anyone we wish including "other non-profits". One of my lodges rents to a VFW lodge and an AA group. There's a lodge near Los Angeles that rents to an assortment of "other non-profits" one of which is a female-only lodge. I don't remember them being listed on the door, if I remember their landlord lodge building correctly.
Given that use of the cipher book is authorized the claim is exaggerated. The book isn't authorized until raised and not in the building at any time. The claim is really about insisting on proper ritual work. It is required that all proficiencies are learned that way. It is allowed to learn other ritual mouth to ear. That's not the same as being a mouth to ear jurisdiction.
Sounds like it being an excuse to me. Plus a challenge to our PHA brethren to show off their best ritualists ...
When I moved to Texas I had no problem looking up the local district in each jurisdiction on line. I even used the local lodges to influence where we moved when we arrived.
Of course this makes going for a visit easy. Not the same thing as knowing how to filter visitors. That's what the list from GL would be for.
This applies to all states so it's not unique to Texas. I remember in California there was nearly a year of delay to get a list of recognized PHA lodges to us. By that time we'd already checked out and offered a local PHA lodge to become a tenant in our building. They'd asked a couple of years before about it knowing that recognition was on the way.
In theory we didn't even have to wait. Our temple corporations can rent to anyone we wish including "other non-profits". One of my lodges rents to a VFW lodge and an AA group. There's a lodge near Los Angeles that rents to an assortment of "other non-profits" one of which is a female-only lodge. I don't remember them being listed on the door, if I remember their landlord lodge building correctly.
Given that use of the cipher book is authorized the claim is exaggerated. The book isn't authorized until raised and not in the building at any time. The claim is really about insisting on proper ritual work. It is required that all proficiencies are learned that way. It is allowed to learn other ritual mouth to ear. That's not the same as being a mouth to ear jurisdiction.
Sounds like it being an excuse to me. Plus a challenge to our PHA brethren to show off their best ritualists ...
When I moved to Texas I had no problem looking up the local district in each jurisdiction on line. I even used the local lodges to influence where we moved when we arrived.
Of course this makes going for a visit easy. Not the same thing as knowing how to filter visitors. That's what the list from GL would be for.
crono782
Premium Member
Re: Fraternal Relations Committee (Grand Lodge of
Just because a cipher is authorized does not mean that others aren't proud to have learned it by ear. NOR does that mean I am exaggerating. Given the sour taste the subject of ciphers have left in many members' mouths, it is not a far cry to think that this will somehow not be objectionable to some. It is something to be ready for at very least and have an answer should the topic arise.
Again, you can dismiss it, but texas is a large state and you are likely to find someone taking exception and also again, better to be prepared should the topic arises rather than dismiss it because you don't share it rather than be surprised by it on the floor.
Basically, what I'm trying to say is be prepared because these opinions are not a teeny weeny minority. I would think it is better to address the topics in theory now rather than later and have a lot of hard work dashed for lack of preparedness.
EDIT: What it boils down to is this: it is well and good to be the most open-minded mason in the room, but if you are really fighting for something, you have to see it through the opposition's eyes rather than pretend they don't exist.
Just because a cipher is authorized does not mean that others aren't proud to have learned it by ear. NOR does that mean I am exaggerating. Given the sour taste the subject of ciphers have left in many members' mouths, it is not a far cry to think that this will somehow not be objectionable to some. It is something to be ready for at very least and have an answer should the topic arise.
Again, you can dismiss it, but texas is a large state and you are likely to find someone taking exception and also again, better to be prepared should the topic arises rather than dismiss it because you don't share it rather than be surprised by it on the floor.
Basically, what I'm trying to say is be prepared because these opinions are not a teeny weeny minority. I would think it is better to address the topics in theory now rather than later and have a lot of hard work dashed for lack of preparedness.
EDIT: What it boils down to is this: it is well and good to be the most open-minded mason in the room, but if you are really fighting for something, you have to see it through the opposition's eyes rather than pretend they don't exist.
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crono782
Premium Member
Re: Fraternal Relations Committee (Grand Lodge of
Understand that I am not poo-pooing on visitation, but merely pointing out where some sticking points might occur. I do have some reservations on the two areas that I pointed out, but it is nothing that can't be worked out I believe.
Understand that I am not poo-pooing on visitation, but merely pointing out where some sticking points might occur. I do have some reservations on the two areas that I pointed out, but it is nothing that can't be worked out I believe.
KyPastMaster
Registered User
Re: Fraternal Relations Committee (Grand Lodge of
Actually , and do not take this the wrong way as I say this with brotherly love , how one jurisdiction does things and conducts their business is their business and their business alone . I would hope that when I walk into a lodge in another state , that I am not berated or belittled concerning how we conduct our business in Ky .
This is one of the things that made me refrain from joining Masonic forums , one jurisdiction judging another over their differences . A few months back , when I first joined a forum I made the comment that we were allowed to have our Monitors in lodge during meetings and some just blew up on me . At the end of the day , it is/was not their concern . But I also see your point on this one as well , some are judgmental and can not refrain from voicing their opinions and this could cause some derision among the Craft .
Actually , and do not take this the wrong way as I say this with brotherly love , how one jurisdiction does things and conducts their business is their business and their business alone . I would hope that when I walk into a lodge in another state , that I am not berated or belittled concerning how we conduct our business in Ky .
This is one of the things that made me refrain from joining Masonic forums , one jurisdiction judging another over their differences . A few months back , when I first joined a forum I made the comment that we were allowed to have our Monitors in lodge during meetings and some just blew up on me . At the end of the day , it is/was not their concern . But I also see your point on this one as well , some are judgmental and can not refrain from voicing their opinions and this could cause some derision among the Craft .
crono782
Premium Member
GLoTX is my jurisdiction, however your assertion is wise counsel indeed. I only wish the brethren to be prepared so that if/when this topic is brought up, all bases are covered.
My Freemasonry HD
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Re: Fraternal Relations Committee (Grand Lodge of
The clandestine organizations that exist in Texas are a major problem. I honestly don't see what can be done to stop them. There are no laws in place to make it illegal for a non-mason to wear or identify themselves as masons. There are always men who want to be the head honcho and it will always be like that. The only thing I can think of is that if the opportunity exists for freemasonry in Texas to move as one, recognition and visitation has to be in effect to discourage men from joining the convenient, but clandestine, bodies.
The clandestine organizations that exist in Texas are a major problem. I honestly don't see what can be done to stop them. There are no laws in place to make it illegal for a non-mason to wear or identify themselves as masons. There are always men who want to be the head honcho and it will always be like that. The only thing I can think of is that if the opportunity exists for freemasonry in Texas to move as one, recognition and visitation has to be in effect to discourage men from joining the convenient, but clandestine, bodies.
BroBook
Premium Member
Re: Fraternal Relations Committee (Grand Lodge of
"When at practice , practice however when it's real it's real , to all brothers get ready and stay ready you won't have time to go to your room'
My Freemasonry HD
"When at practice , practice however when it's real it's real , to all brothers get ready and stay ready you won't have time to go to your room'
My Freemasonry HD
Re: Fraternal Relations Committee (Grand Lodge of
Pardon me if I completely misinterpreted your response. I don't think that r + v would help PHA combat clandestine groups because IMO the MWPHGLoTX is not actively trying to do that. I believe that the focus is not eradicating clandestine freemasonry, but practicing regular masonry. With that being said, from the POV of the clandestine mason who is being taught that "they" don't want to recognize you, "they" won't work with you, and "they" won't allow you to practice freemasonry with "them", both of our institutions with agreements to r + v takes the wind out of those sails. By truly exemplifying brotherly love the reduction of clandestine orgs is a byproduct.
Pardon me if I completely misinterpreted your response. I don't think that r + v would help PHA combat clandestine groups because IMO the MWPHGLoTX is not actively trying to do that. I believe that the focus is not eradicating clandestine freemasonry, but practicing regular masonry. With that being said, from the POV of the clandestine mason who is being taught that "they" don't want to recognize you, "they" won't work with you, and "they" won't allow you to practice freemasonry with "them", both of our institutions with agreements to r + v takes the wind out of those sails. By truly exemplifying brotherly love the reduction of clandestine orgs is a byproduct.
crono782
Premium Member
Your interpretation was correct. Hmm yes that was a bit of fanciful thinking wasn't it? It's a romantic idea, but not a logical one.
My Freemasonry HD
dfreybur
Premium Member
Re: Fraternal Relations Committee (Grand Lodge of
Proud, yes. But read the monitor about the attributes of a EA Mason again. Truth matters. Having an authorized cipher necessarily means we are not a mouth to ear jurisdiction. We are a cipher jurisdiction that happens to be proud of our high degree of mouth to ear instruction. If the truth is not broadcast then it is not learned. What is currently being broadcast is not accurate and thus not true.
Exactly. To me the truth needs to be educated. When taking a stance in the face of the truth it becomes easy to cross from pride in accomplishment to devaluing those without the same accomplishment to figuring those who didn't do it your way didn't make the same accomplishment. The path to resolve that is education.
Proud, yes. But read the monitor about the attributes of a EA Mason again. Truth matters. Having an authorized cipher necessarily means we are not a mouth to ear jurisdiction. We are a cipher jurisdiction that happens to be proud of our high degree of mouth to ear instruction. If the truth is not broadcast then it is not learned. What is currently being broadcast is not accurate and thus not true.
Exactly. To me the truth needs to be educated. When taking a stance in the face of the truth it becomes easy to cross from pride in accomplishment to devaluing those without the same accomplishment to figuring those who didn't do it your way didn't make the same accomplishment. The path to resolve that is education.
crono782
Premium Member
Re: Fraternal Relations Committee (Grand Lodge of
Perhaps that could change if there was a correct authorized cipher, but that's a whole other topic...
Your words hold great depth. Wrongful pride is what got us here in the first place if you think about it. We did not remember the first principle tenet of our profession so many years ago that necessitated the birth of PHA. Remembering the rough Ashlar, misplaced pride will dog us every step of the way, agreed. I guess one thing to consider is how broad is our aim in this context? Course correcting a flaw in man fermenting thousands of years or healing an old wound but a few centuries old? Both one should say, but is the former out of scope here and now? Most hope to have visitation in a few short years. The other might take much longer, hah!
My Freemasonry HD
Perhaps that could change if there was a correct authorized cipher, but that's a whole other topic...
Your words hold great depth. Wrongful pride is what got us here in the first place if you think about it. We did not remember the first principle tenet of our profession so many years ago that necessitated the birth of PHA. Remembering the rough Ashlar, misplaced pride will dog us every step of the way, agreed. I guess one thing to consider is how broad is our aim in this context? Course correcting a flaw in man fermenting thousands of years or healing an old wound but a few centuries old? Both one should say, but is the former out of scope here and now? Most hope to have visitation in a few short years. The other might take much longer, hah!
My Freemasonry HD