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Greetings from Portugal

D

DanielR

Registered User
vinceatwork said:
Hi Brother Daniel,

I will take you up on your offer of wine, if the GAOTU graces me with enough health to come to Europe and visit my brothers and friends in several Jurisdictions, some of which are recognized by (in Amity with) one of my two Grand Lodges, some with/by the other.

There is a movement started some 10-15 years ago in Europe, to unite all Masons in friendship, regardless of (political) recognition/regularity/liberality etc. to which you may find consonance, as I do.

You can read more about it here:

http://www.freemasonryresearchforumqsa.com/the-timehascome-to-speak.php

Mantenha-se bem, irmão!
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Hello Brother Vince!

Thank you for your kind worda and for sharing the word on that movement. I did not know about it but I hope it grows in numbers and strength because even though I do believe certain basic principles of regularity should be in place for a Grand Lodge to be internationally recognized, much of the argumentation for refusing or giving "amity" sounds all too much like the "no true Scotsman" fallacy. It is beneath what Freemasonry should be about.

I hope the GAOTU creates the opportunity for me to show you the meaning of Portuguese masonic fraternity. Be sure to let me know if you happen to pop by, it would be a pleasure meeting you. I have just the bottle for the occasion.

Até breve meu irmão!

Sent from my SM-J730F using My Freemasonry mobile app
 
Bloke

Bloke

Premium Member
DanielR said:
Hello Brother Vince!

Thank you for your kind worda and for sharing the word on that movement. I did not know about it but I hope it grows in numbers and strength because even though I do believe certain basic principles of regularity should be in place for a Grand Lodge to be internationally recognized, much of the argumentation for refusing or giving "amity" sounds all too much like the "no true Scotsman" fallacy. It is beneath what Freemasonry should be about.

I hope the GAOTU creates the opportunity for me to show you the meaning of Portuguese masonic fraternity. Be sure to let me know if you happen to pop by, it would be a pleasure meeting you. I have just the bottle for the occasion.

Até breve meu irmão!

Sent from my SM-J730F using My Freemasonry mobile app
Click to expand...
Funny, I was just reading the Charges of a Freemason a few hours ago and the above reminded me of

"He, of all men, should best understand that GOD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh at the outward appearance, but GOD looketh to the heart. A Mason is, therefore, particularly bound never to act against the dictates of his conscience."

It's the first charge and in relation to religion and faith, but reading your post made me think of it..
 
dfreybur

dfreybur

Premium Member
DanielR said:
All I can tell you is that I refused all previous invitations from other more well established Portuguese Grand Lodges.
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Another invitational jurisdiction. I knew Germany was not the only one in Europe but did not know which others.

International recognition will come in due time. Or not.
Click to expand...

I am sad to hear of the turmoil.
 
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Glen Cook

Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
Like Paraguay, Italy and Bulgaria, it has been going on for decades. There are the four primary groups in Portugal (GO Lusitano is the oldest) and I’m unclear how many mixed.

At a meeting in Madrid on Saturday we discussed some of these GLs again, not suggesting a merger, but simply an agreement to share jurisdiction. No go. Sigh.
 
D

DanielR

Registered User
Glen Cook said:
Like Paraguay, Italy and Bulgaria, it has been going on for decades. There are the four primary groups in Portugal (GO Lusitano is the oldest) and I’m unclear how many mixed.

At a meeting in Madrid on Saturday we discussed some of these GLs again, not suggesting a merger, but simply an agreement to share jurisdiction. No go. Sigh.
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This may sound naive but may I ask what the rationale was for not sharing jurisdiction?

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Glen Cook

Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
In some cases, sheer bloody mindedness or desire for power. In others, such as Portugal, one senses they are too angry (with respect, review some of your posts above, and you are a newer Mason and have already drunk the Koolaid. The views of those who love lived through the schism are likely more pronounced). and the three GLs practicing regular Masonry don’t wish to. I note I am a honorary GM in one obedience. In Italy, as I understand, their respective constitutions each declare they are the only ones practicing regular Freemasonry. So, an agreement to share jurisdiction would require a constitutional change. Constitutional chsnges are, appropriately, more difficult.
I note I’m only addressing those practicing regular Masonry.
 
Bloke

Bloke

Premium Member
Glen Cook said:
...I note I am a honorary GM in one obedience.
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Really ? I've never heard of that. Is it common and is there a country (or continent) where this practice is restricted to ? What is the exact title which is bestowed ? Its not the best thing to google (chess etc) but i did find it in Alaska - and they are MW:
"Honorary Grand Masters
To be nominated and selected for “Honorary Past Grand Master” is one of the highest honors you can receive as a Mason. To qualify, the person must be a Past Worshipful Master and demonstrated or performed some act that has made him stand out as a Past Worshipful Master. Below is a list of the Alaska Honorary Past Grand Masters.
1997 - M. W. Wendal H. Kuecker
2002 - M. W. Thomas O. Mickey
2010 - M. W. Donald P. Frizzell"

http://www.grandlodgeofalaska.org/honorary-grand-masters

Well, I just made a masonic step in knowledge.. .... .. .. .. I did not know it can be a conferred rank - here we use Past Dep Grand Master - which is a big hint in itself that it is conferred... I know this is gross thread drift, but did not want to take Bro Glen's post to another thread..
 
Glen Cook

Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
Bloke said:
Really ? I've never heard of that. Is it common and is there a country (or continent) where this practice is restricted to ? What is the exact title which is bestowed ? Its not the best thing to google (chess etc) but i did find it in Alaska - and they are MW:
"Honorary Grand Masters
To be nominated and selected for “Honorary Past Grand Master” is one of the highest honors you can receive as a Mason. To qualify, the person must be a Past Worshipful Master and demonstrated or performed some act that has made him stand out as a Past Worshipful Master. Below is a list of the Alaska Honorary Past Grand Masters.
1997 - M. W. Wendal H. Kuecker
2002 - M. W. Thomas O. Mickey
2010 - M. W. Donald P. Frizzell"

http://www.grandlodgeofalaska.org/honorary-grand-masters

Well, I just made a masonic step in knowledge.. .... .. .. .. I did not know it can be a conferred rank - here we use Past Dep Grand Master - which is a big hint in itself that it is conferred... I know this is gross thread drift, but did not want to take Bro Glen's post to another thread..
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Well, if the OP doesn’t mind us derailing the discussion...

The concept surely varies. It is easier, I should think, if one is a substantive GM. It is often based on a perception of service to the fraternity, or as a favourite son if one is a GM outside his home state. I’ve also seen our sister PHA GL grant it to a GM of Utah who had worked in Fraternal Relations between the two GLs.

I’ve seen a Past Grand Secretary in Colorado awarded the PGM honour, and the inimitable Thomas Jackson, PGSec, who has flown more for the international fraternity than the next 20 of us put together. I can’t remember which jurisdiction awarded his.

It is also common in Europe and Africa to receive honourary PGW ranks or a rank equivalent to that of the visiting foreign GLO. These tend to be granted more casually, in my experience.

I’ve not seen UGLE do this.

It is my view that, like an homoury doctorate, any privileges are limited to the granting entity.
 
D

DanielR

Registered User
Glen Cook said:
In some cases, sheer bloody mindedness or desire for power. In others, such as Portugal, one senses they are too angry (with respect, review some of your posts above, and you are a newer Mason and have already drunk the Koolaid. The views of those who love lived through the schism are likely more pronounced). and the three GLs practicing regular Masonry don’t wish to. I note I am a honorary GM in one obedience. In Italy, as I understand, their respective constitutions each declare they are the only ones practicing regular Freemasonry. So, an agreement to share jurisdiction would require a constitutional change. Constitutional chsnges are, appropriately, more difficult.
I note I’m only addressing those practicing regular Masonry.
Click to expand...
Well, you seem to have me and my country all figured out. We're an angry lot. Look at this post for instance, which I read after absent-mindedly writing it. Passive-aggressive through and through.

With respect, there might be more to it than you think, and the use of the expression "you have drunk the Koolaid" may be considered by some, Masons and non-Masons alike, as perhaps overly condescending in light of the intelectual history of the new Mason you are now addressing, whom you know nothing about, and beneath your rank. But then again, thanks are in order. The overall attitude does shed light on many of the issues under discussion here, including that of recognition amongst Masons.

I will now return to the silence which is becoming of my Masonic rank (for those who recognize me as such, anyway), and seethe quietly in barely restrained fury, in keeping with my nationality. Best wishes to all.

Sent from my SM-J730F using My Freemasonry mobile app
 
Bloke

Bloke

Premium Member
Glen Cook said:
Well, if the OP doesn’t mind us derailing the discussion...

The concept surely varies. It is easier, I should think, if one is a substantive GM. It is often based on a perception of service to the fraternity, or as a favourite son if one is a GM outside his home state. I’ve also seen our sister PHA GL grant it to a GM of Utah who had worked in Fraternal Relations between the two GLs.

I’ve seen a Past Grand Secretary in Colorado awarded the PGM honour, and the inimitable Thomas Jackson, PGSec, who has flown more for the international fraternity than the next 20 of us put together. I can’t remember which jurisdiction awarded his.

It is also common in Europe and Africa to receive honourary PGW ranks or a rank equivalent to that of the visiting foreign GLO. These tend to be granted more casually, in my experience.

I’ve not seen UGLE do this.

It is my view that, like an homoury doctorate, any privileges are limited to the granting entity.
Click to expand...
Thanks Bro Glen, as I said, that was a new one me.
 
Glen Cook

Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
DanielR said:
Well, you seem to have me and my country all figured out. We're an angry lot. Look at this post for instance, which I read after absent-mindedly writing it. Passive-aggressive through and through.

With respect, there might be more to it than you think, and the use of the expression "you have drunk the Koolaid" may be considered by some, Masons and non-Masons alike, as perhaps overly condescending in light of the intelectual history of the new Mason you are now addressing, whom you know nothing about, and beneath your rank. But then again, thanks are in order. The overall attitude does shed light on many of the issues under discussion here, including that of recognition amongst Masons.

I will now return to the silence which is becoming of my Masonic rank (for those who recognize me as such, anyway), and seethe quietly in barely restrained fury, in keeping with my nationality. Best wishes to all.

Sent from my SM-J730F using My Freemasonry mobile app
Click to expand...
You err. I made no comment about your country. I did note that on this issue there is still anger on both sides of this issue. Your comments even as a new member denigrating the other obedience well demonstrate it. One could make the same argument about Paraguay. Cf Brazil, where obediences seemed to largely get along before the recent recognitions.

I understand that you choose to also take offense at the Kool aid comment. You, as a new member, have already adopted the repeated group speak of those to whom you ally yourself—a view taken by both sides! It is, to me, a doomed road which Portuguese Freemasonry has taken. And that’s my apparently not well made point: this is an attitude for both sides and for inexperienced and experienced members alike. You have well proven my point.

Actually, you have told us some your intellectual history.It clearly is important to you. It may well surpass mine. Indeed, I asked you questions about it. I am interested if you now teach.

As to rank, this is Masonry. I do not consider Masonic rank to be particularly relevant in life. It is part of ritual and ceremony. Otherwise, it doesn’t gain traction for me.

So, shall we leave this and turn to more pleasant topics (one of which would not be the weather in Paris today)?
 
D

DanielR

Registered User
Glen Cook said:
You err. I made no comment about your country. I did note that on this issue there is still anger on both sides of this issue. Your comments even as a new member denigrating the other obedience well demonstrate it. One could make the same argument about Paraguay. Cf Brazil, where obediences seemed to largely get along before the recent recognitions.

I understand that you choose to also take offense at the Kool aid comment. You, as a new member, have already adopted the repeated group speak of those to whom you ally yourself—a view taken by both sides! It is, to me, a doomed road which Portuguese Freemasonry has taken. And that’s my apparently not well made point: this is an attitude for both sides and for inexperienced and experienced members alike. You have well proven my point.

Actually, you have told us some your intellectual history.It clearly is important to you. It may well surpass mine. Indeed, I asked you questions about it. I am interested if you now teach.

As to rank, this is Masonry. I do not consider Masonic rank to be particularly relevant in life. It is part of ritual and ceremony. Otherwise, it doesn’t gain traction for me.

So, shall we leave this and turn to more pleasant topics (one of which would not be the weather in Paris today)?
Click to expand...
By all means, my dear Glen, by all means. But just to be clear, this "repeated group speak" you talk of is all over the news and is causing people to leave in droves to join my Grand Lodge. I just spoke to one of them in a session two days ago and he described the situation as "chaotic". This was someone who at the time was still in the Grand Lodge you are in amity with (though he has now joined mine). This is just a side note to clarify that I have not been brainwashed - the only reason I brought up my intellectual history was to clarify how improbable that is. I am simply stating facts which have been reported from within and from without. Do with that information as you please.

Whether Portuguese Freemasonry is in a doomed path or not is for neither of us to say. All I can do is measure the character of those who call themselves Freemasons through the tools Freemasonry gives us. I am not denigrating the other obedience, I believe I was abundantly clear in saying I was not talking about it as a whole. I spoke only of the Grand Master, whom I do not recognize as a Freemason, again, for reasons which are unfortunately very public and corroborated by many Masons.

The weather in Lisbon would be an equally unpleasant topic today so let us wait in hope for sunnier days, literally and figuratively.

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Matt L

Matt L

Site Benefactor
Welcome Daniel. As Brother Warrior stated in another thread, I've learned a lot in this one. Brother Glen, safe travels.
 
Matt L

Matt L

Site Benefactor
Glen Cook said:
Thanks. I’m attending the investiture of the new First Principal for Supreme Grand Chapter of Scotland today. I’ve never had occasion to do so. I think the incumbent served for nine years.
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I was going to try and make it to Manchester Hall UK this Saturday. But had to cancel, having some difficulties with an eye and my Doctor didn't want me to fly. I'm going to miss my Grand Lodge session this year, scheduled for laser surgery.
Brother Glen, you are and outstanding ambassador for the fraternity and have served your Church and Country well.
 
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