My Freemasonry | Freemason Information and Discussion Forum

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Have standards really been lowered?

Brother JC

Moderating Staff
Staff Member
I'm not sure if it was a typo, @coachn , but I particularly like the "good me" comment. There is only one man I can change and that's me. If that change brings about a positive change in the lodge or Brethren, even better.
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
I'm not sure if it was a typo, @coachn , but I particularly like the "good me" comment. There is only one man I can change and that's me. If that change brings about a positive change in the lodge or Brethren, even better.
Admittedly, it was a type-o originally, I caught it and then said to myself, "Leave it! See is someone catches the double MEaning."

Freemasons should only take a Brother's inventory when he is actually doing something WRONG. Not when he isn't living up to our unrealistic expectations.

KUDOS!!!
 

Brother_Steve

Premium Member
Just went through this whole thread, and it was simultaneously enlightening and a tad discouraging I must admit.
I am going to agree with you IF we're on the same train of thought.

Anyone who has knelt before the altar and took the obligations is a Mason regardless of what we think. They are not "members."

Remember, those men that are being called "members" were voted on by men who attend lodge. They were not brought into the fraternity via some membrane from another dimension.

Some men might not be great at ritual. Some men might not be esoteric. Some men might not be leadership quality but they are Masons nonetheless.

Now, if you have an issue with someone because of moral shortcomings, then they will filter themselves out IF they got past the IC and Ballot Box. I've seen plenty of Brothers get the cold shoulder because of their choices in life and I've not seen them back in Lodge.
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
...Anyone who has knelt before the altar and took the obligations is a Mason regardless of what we think. They are not "members."...
If they are on the lodge roster and are paid up, they are indeed "members". What's more, if they belong to the fraternity, they are members. We have a whole bunch of "members"; every last one of them are Freemasons.

However, are they all Masons? That's a whole different potato to peel.
 

Bloke

Premium Member
I believe your questions are based in fear and have nothing to do with being qualified as a member.

I asked quite a few posts ago what the "Benefits & Rights" were and no one responded. I believe they are voluntarily enjoyed; they are not mandatory.

Responsibilities do not include "running the lodge" or "attending meetings". In fact, life takes priority over lodge activities, ALWAYS! Those who get caught up on an unfounded guilt trip are usually the ones who get most upset when others do not buy into it and who have their priorities proper for themselves.

I believe those who adequately assess membership responsibilities of the jurisdiction will come to understand that they are to continue being a good man and practice Masonic principles. Attendance or running the lodge are elective responsibilities only.

Members do not owe anything to the lodge other than what I just mentioned AND dues payments. "Guilting" anyone with what you have mentioned is counterproductive and morally wrong.

BTW - It's been my experience that those who get caught up in these guilt trips eventually get bitter and attack those who don't; this behavior drives members away.

I think this "guilt trip" point Coach makes is very important. Freemasons often use it to try to get people to lodge, but it is a bad bad method and actually can be damaging. You need members to be there because they want to be, not because they have been emotionally blackmailed and I say guiting members to attend is counter productive because you need happy members who want to be there, not ones who are unhappily there because they've been guilted into it. Hence my
So I have a debt I try to pay forward, but that does not mean everyone should do as I do and in the same way.. hopefully some follow the example, just as I did (and they are, there were only 2 PMs in the ceremony and all the other work was done by MMs) but if some dont, but still support the lodge, even if only by paying dues, I am grateful for their support and continuing commitment, even if it is not the same as others' contribution..

At the end of the day, any gift should be given without strings, if it s given with conditions, it's not really a gift, it is a transaction... but on reading what I wrote in the sentence "At the end of the day, any gift should be given without strings, if it s given with conditions, it's not really a gift, it is a transaction" degrees do create mutual (and I do mean MUTUAL) obligations.. at its simplest, that obligation is to meet the promises you make and to particularity obey to Const.. but our Second and Third degree Obligations doe have the lines about "answer and obey all lawful.. summonses, if within the length of my cable tow" ... some folk seem to have very short cable tows and I often wonder about that but try not to judge unless is positively, for instance, we had a guy only recently recovered from illness attend last meeting, and a bro with one leg to struggles up our stairs very meeting, but hardly misses one... I think that effort is fantastic and often point out their commitment. Indeed its inspired me to show up when I have not felt like it (esp a meeting a few years ago when the lodge was in mourning for my proposer..)
 

Bill Lins

Moderating Staff
Staff Member
I think to develop as a Freemason, you need to be going to Lodge. I also think as a Freemason, you need to focus on your own conduct first as it is the only thing you can control. Me, I felt like in initiating, passing and raising me, I owed a debt to the lodge and only had that experience because someone had put the time into learning the lines and lessons and delivering them in lodge and coaching me outside lodge so I try to pay that debt forward to others by doing what was done for me and learning the lines and showing up etc.
Amen! I felt the exact same way. I had (& have) respect & admiration for those who conferred my Degrees and took the time to teach me not only the catechism, but, more importantly, what it means & how to live as a Mason. I felt & continue to feel that I owed it to the Fraternity to emulate, to the best of my ability, their example.
 

Bill Lins

Moderating Staff
Staff Member
I believe your questions are based in fear.
The only thing I fear is that Lodges will cease to exist without Brethren accepting their responsibilities in assisting with the work of the Lodge

I asked quite a few posts ago what the "Benefits & Rights" were and no one responded.
Well, forgive me for not responding sooner. You see, like most of the Brethren of my Lodge, I am not retired. Of our officers, only one is not working. Roughly half of the rest of us are self-employed and the other half have "real" jobs. In fact, our SW not only runs his own ready-mix business, but also has 5 kids. Trust me, he neither neglects his business nor his family. Masonry is important enough to him that he finds time to be involved- he knows full well the lesson of the 24-inch gauge. As to your question, the benefits & rights are to be able to meet on the level with others who have the same interest, to have a place where like-minded Brethren can meet to fellowship & learn about Masonry and to perform the work that teaches the lessons of Masonry.

life takes priority over lodge activities, ALWAYS!
Of course it does. That IS the lesson of the 24-inch gauge. One will always find time for that which is important to him- the lesson is to keep all in balance.

Coachn, it is obvious from your statements that you have a serious problem with the institution of Masonry. At times, I get aggravated with it also. However, it is a necessary evil with which we must deal in order to pursue the ideals of Masonry.
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
The only thing I fear is that Lodges will cease to exist without Brethren accepting their responsibilities in assisting with the work of the Lodge
Your fear is based upon an assumption that is unfounded. Brethren do not have that responsibility unless they volunteer to take it upon themselves.
Well, forgive me for not responding sooner.
Forgiveness given! Nice of you to step up to the plate. KUDOS!
You see, like most of the Brethren of my Lodge, I am not retired.
That makes two of us. We should start a club! and get polo shirts with logos!
Of our officers, only one is not working. Roughly half of the rest of us are self-employed and the other half have "real" jobs. In fact, our SW not only runs his own ready-mix business, but also has 5 kids. Trust me, he neither neglects his business nor his family.
You have not given me any reason to mistrust you, yet.
Masonry is important enough to him that he finds time to be involved- he knows full well the lesson of the 24-inch gauge.
Kudos to him. He finds time to be involved "with lodge activities". That is his way. Others have their own ways.
As to your question, the benefits & rights are to be able to meet on the level with others who have the same interest, to have a place where like-minded Brethren can meet to fellowship & learn about Masonry and to perform the work that teaches the lessons of Masonry.
What you have shared is not something that is limited to attending meetings. It is one way; it is not the only way.
Of course it does. That IS the lesson of the 24-inch gauge. One will always find time for that which is important to him- the lesson is to keep all in balance.
I'm glad that you agree.
Coachn, it is obvious from your statements that you have a serious problem with the institution of Masonry.
You have no idea what you are talking about Bill. I have no problems whatsoever with the institution. It is designed to do exactly what it does and it does it splendidly. The fact that you have concluded this from my statements tells me that you have some baggage that biases your view of me. Good luck with that.

BTW - My trust factor is now on alert...
At times, I also get aggravated with it also.
There are helpful programs for that.
However, it is a necessary evil with which we must deal in order to pursue the ideals of Masonry.
One does not have to attend lodge to pursue the ideals of Masonry. In fact, should you attend Lodge to pursue these ideals, you might just become aggravated. The fact that you have concluded there are necessary evils in lodge make me wonder what fraternity you belong to.

BTW - I love the fraternity; and my Brothers. I merely don't suffer foolish members who have preconceived notions that give then the mistaken believe it is more than they make it to be nor do I hold back when they try to impose their foolish baggage upon others. We all deserve much better.
 
Last edited:

Bloke

Premium Member
life takes priority over lodge activities, ALWAYS!

Not quite always I think.

If I accept an office, I've made a commitment. If a Master asks "Can you please attend all meetings of the lodge while in that office, emergencies accepted" and I say I will, it means for one night a month (and rehearsal) Lodge actually comes first because I've made a promise - emergencies accepted and they are not things which can be rescheduled or a man should be able to overcome.. If that means I am tired but need to push through or need to be up at 3 am to meet a deadline or will only get a few hours sleep, or my family has to go without me or I miss something (including income), then to keep my word I will make extreme effort to be at lodge. Now, my attendance is not 100% even if in important office, I've missed lodge for my nephew and nieces 21st & engagement, (on my nephew's 21st who I am godfather to, I was in the chair and the lodge agreed to oven the meeting so I could be there), I was seriously ill, my partner *really needed* me ... Again, this is my standard for myself.... and my family knows to try to avoid the 1st Sat and 2nd Thurs of the month. Our SD will not be at our next two meetings because of a close friends bucks night and then wedding, which is where he should be and not lodge, I've seen a Master put an apology in for a Wedding Anniversary (as well he should)... and again, we should not guilt a Brother into missing such a mementos occasion - the result of that will be we will loose him in the team and maybe even as a member..

We're not some crazy cult where people should be there or admonished for not showing up, we need to treat each other like adults, but we also need to act like one.. but we are men of honour and if we make an undertaking should keep it, and if in question, qualify the undertaking or not make it.

(A qualification on the above; Attendance is much easier here.. because we only meet once a month... I am not sure I would have joined the Craft if it was weekly and doubt I would have taken office..)
 

goomba

Neo-Antient
Site Benefactor
When I first joined I thought "man only twice a month. no big deal." Now I do prefer my lodge that meets once a month and have thought 4-6 meetings per year would be perfect. Granted with 4-6 missing one meeting would be a huge chuck.

Blue Lodge: 24
York Rite: 12
Practice: 10-24
Other Masonic Bodies: 6
Total: 52 days

Blue Lodge: 4
York Rite: 4
Practice: 10
Other: 6
Total: 24

I think by slowing down the lodge it would help prevent burn out, increase membership/attendance in the lodge, and increase membership/attendance in other bodies. You would be able to spread your time on different aspects of the Craft without feeling like your neglecting another part. Maybe that's why our English brothers meet much less in lodge than we do in the USA. I think the average is 4-8 meetings per year for lodge. Look at the Metropolitan Grand Lodge of London (a province of UGLE) they have a group of lodges that are for college age men. They may be on to something.
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
Most important points BOLDED AND UNDERLINED...
I think this "guilt trip" point Coach makes is very important. Freemasons often use it to try to get people to lodge, but it is a bad bad method and actually can be damaging. You need members to be there because they want to be, not because they have been emotionally blackmailed and I say guilting members to attend is counter productive because you need happy members who want to be there, not ones who are unhappily there because they've been guilted into it. ..

At the end of the day, any gift should be given without strings, if it s given with conditions, it's not really a gift, it is a transaction... but on reading what I wrote in the sentence "At the end of the day, any gift should be given without strings, if it s given with conditions, it's not really a gift, it is a transaction" degrees do create mutual (and I do mean MUTUAL) obligations.. at its simplest, that obligation is to meet the promises you make and to particularity obey to Const.. but our Second and Third degree Obligations doe have the lines about "answer and obey all lawful.. summonses, if within the length of my cable tow" ... some folk seem to have very short cable tows and I often wonder about that but try not to judge unless is positively, for instance, we had a guy only recently recovered from illness attend last meeting, and a bro with one leg to struggles up our stairs very meeting, but hardly misses one... I think that effort is fantastic and often point out their commitment. Indeed its inspired me to show up when I have not felt like it (esp a meeting a few years ago when the lodge was in mourning for my proposer..)

(Not directed to you Bloke)

At the end of the day, membership is totally voluntary and so is attendance. Everyone has their own priorities and reasons for being members and participating as they see fit.

Moreover, the obligations are between God and the member taking them upon himself, and will be judged by himself and God alone and rightfully so; not other members unless they forget to circumscribe their passions. The only judging a member can rightfully do of another has to do with the jurisdiction's digest of law and it must ALWAYS include the "Cable-Tow Clause".

Furthermore, if you cannot absolutely and unconditionally value and respect a man's contribution to the fraternity if all he does is pay dues, they you have yet to understand the true nature of the fraternity.
 
Top