Homosexual and Bisexual Brother Masons

Discussion in 'General Freemasonry Discussion' started by Mason653, Jun 29, 2013.

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  1. MarkR

    MarkR Premium Member

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    I don't think this should start to devolve into arguing with each other. He gave his honest feelings; don't demand that he defend them.

    Yes, we are all sinners. We are, however, expected to repent our sins and genuinely try not to sin. In my original example of a brother who believes that homosexuality is a sin, and sees a petitioner whom he believes to be unrepentantly living a life of sin, should he be expected to ignore that in his ballot? Some have said we are not to judge. Then we should stop repeating the Masonic phrase of "guarding the west gate" because we ALWAYS judge the moral soundness of the petitioners to our Lodges.
     
  2. BryanMaloney

    BryanMaloney Premium Member

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    To say that someone is "no longer a man" is condemning them. Consider this, if one homosexual act means that a man is "no longer a man", therefore, one act of lust--or indeed, committing any sin, whatsoever, would mean that someone is not saved and can never be saved, no matter what. By the same measure you use, shall you be judged, after all.
     
  3. LittleHunter

    LittleHunter Registered User

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    I think, as Masons, part of applying the working tools is learning to be tolerant of other religions. This is why we do not discuss religion in Lodge. In some faiths drinking alcohol is a sin, in others it is not. In some faiths divorce is a sin, in others it is not. In some faiths same-sex love is a sin, in others it is not. I may not agree with a Brother's religion but as a Mason I must still try to be a good Brother and accept him even if our religions do not exactly agree on everything.


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  4. relapse98

    relapse98 Registered User

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    Vote your conscience in your ballot. Its between you and God.

    Edit: But to call someone "no longer a man", that's just bigoted nonsense.
     
  5. Michael Hatley

    Michael Hatley Premium Member

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    See, I try and avoid language like that. Not just with this issue, but in all forms of - shall we say, strong feelings about people of other races, religions, orientations and all of that. I've found that the only thing calling someone a bigot, saying they are using bigoted language - much less that what they are saying is nonsensical or the like just digs their feet into the dirt and they will defend their position to the last breath.

    It is insulting, is why.

    Now, I've been accused of being an appeaser by some, and a liberal tree hugger by others. But really you have to straddle the fence a bit if you are genuinely trying to respect each other's views.

    And respect is the only way through these sorts of issues. Casting stones at one another, escalating the tone, its not how change happens.

    My take, if a man believes homosexuality is a sin rather than a trait (like eye color or hair color), then of course they are going to take issue with it if they are a devout man. And I cannot fault a man's motives for voting down a candidate on those grounds.

    I simply disagree.

    What I wish there was less of was the feeling of "disgust" people seem to have. And sometimes I wonder which bolsters which. Do certain passages in the Bible create the disgust, in truth? Or do certain passages in the Bible authenticate the disgust? Thats for every man to search his heart about.

    For me, it is hard to be disgusted about homosexuality. I grew up on the border of Mexico and from 14-18 spent so much time in places you read about on the other side of the border that I have seen it all, and many things you don't read about and are still unsafe for television and movies. I've seen things that can properly be called disgusting and thats a fact.

    Plus I know precisely what I like and don't like. I don't harbor any doubts about it, I've got no reason to feel defensive or threatened. For me seeing two gay fellas flirting or whatever in a social setting is like seeing a man and a woman doing so, in practical terms. It just doesn't make me uncomfortable. I don't worry that they are hinting at me or the like, because they know and I know I'm not wired that way.

    Further, I've been married for lets see...18 years now. My wife and I don't have children and don't plan to. We've got a pack of God children, and don't dislike kiddos - but shes an educator and I travel a lot, its just not been in the cards. But we love each other deeply. For us, marriage has nothing to do with procreation.

    Anyhow, none of this stuff has much of any impact on the lodge. I don't think anyone is advocating that homosexuality be worn on anyone's shirt sleeve, or that the lodge become a place where it is some kind of topic of conversation or the like.

    I'd just like to see the day where good Brothers didn't have to feel afraid. Where they could bring their partners to the Lodge's picnic or whatever without it being a big controversy.

    To be honest we really aren't far away from that - and in some parts of the world and country already are. And things are doing just fine there.
     
  6. therosadvocatus

    therosadvocatus Registered User

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    La fracmasoneria busca hombres buebos para hacerlos mejores, cierto es q ser homosexual no t hace bueno o malo, como de la misma forma ser heterosexual, sin embargo, considero que la homosexualidad rompe completamente con varios land marks, como tambien los principios esotericos mas elementales, si en la masoneria se busca desvastar la piedra en bruta de los vicios, por que aceptar que un individuo el cual se ha volcado a sus pasiones y por ello ha dejado lo adecuado y lo natural, yo no diganos lo moral, debe ser.aveptado con el simple pretexto de q no se nos llame individuos cerrados a la modernidad, lo nuevo no siempre es bue o ni provechoso, saludos desde Mexico a todos mis QQ HH

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  7. BryanMaloney

    BryanMaloney Premium Member

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    What I object to is how sex is made the sole, single yardstick for morality.

    Consider that Scripture states that defrauding workers of their wages is a sin that "cries out to Heaven for vengeance", why is there no outrage when such situations come up? Instead, people shrug, or even worse, many who consider themselves to be "conservative" actually SUPPORT the employer in such disputes or at very least are willing to let bygones be bygones for future business. If it is a sin that cries out to Heaven for vengeance to deny a worker his wages ("You shall not withhold the wages of poor and needy labourers, whether other Israelites or aliens who reside in your land in one of your towns. You shall pay them their wages daily before sunset, because they are poor and their livelihood depends on them; otherwise they might cry to the Lord against you, and you would incur guilt." Deut 24:14-25; "Listen! The wages of the labourers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts." James 5:4), why give WalMart or other employers a free pass in the future? Why not insist upon boycotting them forever on moral grounds, as they would be "not really a business" from thereafter, having committed that most serious category of sins.

    For the curious, the full list is murder, sodomy, oppression of the poor, and denial of wages--but only sodomy is given great importance on a visceral level, murder is able to be overlooked for "the right cause" and we just shrug at it if it doesn't effect us. Oppression of the poor and denial of wages are not considered in the least bit serious even though Scripture ranks them on the same level as the first two. But that doesn't matter. Only sex matters to the modern-day moralist.
     
  8. widows son

    widows son Premium Member

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    Also sodomy can occur between a man and a woman as well as a man and a man.
     
  9. Frater Cliff Porter

    Frater Cliff Porter Premium Member

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    If you want to fire up a Masonic forum...Jesus, Race, Homosexuality, Crowley....all guaranteed to devolve into name calling. Its good to have strong feelings....you will never change a minds man, its hard enough to change our own.
     
  10. MarkR

    MarkR Premium Member

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    I'm confused here. How has WalMart defrauded workers of their wages? Do they not pay them the wages they were offered, and accepted, when they were hired? If they do, there is no defrauding. If they offer one wage and then pay a lesser one, or not pay it at all, that's defrauding.
     
  11. BryanMaloney

    BryanMaloney Premium Member

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    There are cases, including a current one involving warehouse workers. But more telling is how you are so eager, champing at the bit, to run to WalMart's defense--nicely illustrating my point. So many of the self-appointed "moral" people in this country only cherry-pick their "morality" and ultimately boil "morality" down to nothing more than sex.

    In any case, by the measure you judge you shall be judged, and if one is willing to state that someone is "no longer a man" for having committed a single act, do not be surprised at being condemned as "never able to be saved" by a Divine Judge for having committed any sin at all.

    More details:
    In 2005, WalMart defrauded workers of their meal breaks (California)--feel free to quibble over whether "wages" can be split fine enough to include this or not--then go run to the Pharisees and see if they approve.
    In 2006, WalMart defrauded workers of wages in Pennsylvania--on appeal, the judge more than DOUBLED the award to $188 million, and the doubling of the award was upheld in the higher courts. (Pennsylvania)
    In 2007, WalMart defrauded workers of overtime in Minnnesota.

    WalMart routinely commits a sin that cries out to heaven for vengeance. "Conservatives" (so many of whom like to pretend to be Christian) and other self-appointed "moral" people don't care.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2013
  12. Heart of Stone

    Heart of Stone Registered User

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    I don't care about being judged, and I'm pretty sure a homosexual person could careless what I think.I been reading all the comments on here for a while now.And I stand by what I said, BTW we have all judge somebody in our lives.Out of 38 years I have never been called a bigot, I couldn't quit thinking about that comment.

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  13. Bro. Stewart P.M.

    Bro. Stewart P.M. Lead Moderator Emeritus Staff Member

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    Let this serve as a Final Warning to ALL participants. DO NOT turn this discussion into a Personal Attack session. Keep to the facts, and refrain from more personalized (I's & you's). Thanks!
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2013
  14. widows son

    widows son Premium Member

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    "I don't care about being judged, and I'm pretty sure a homosexual person could careless what I think.I been reading all the comments on here for a while now.And I stand by what I said, BTW we have all judge somebody in our lives.Out of 38 years I have never been called a bigot, I couldn't quit thinking about that comment."

    • Brother, don't let opined comments like that get you. I even had my opinion about your opinion, but my goal wasn't to attack or make you feel bad for what you think. That would be ignorant on my part, as I don't know you personally, and don't know the life you have led and continue to lead, nor is it my business. My goal in my comment was to try and at least dispel the fact that homosexuals have a choice in their sexuality.

    My brother, your belief is your absolute right to have. If you have been called a bigot for your belief, then so be it. I agree that you don't care about being judges, as the GAOTU is the final judge.

    "Let this serve as a Final Warning to ALL participants. DO NOT turn this discussion into a Personal Attack session. Keep to the facts, and refrain from more personalized (I's & you's). Thanks!"

    • Thank you brother Stewart. I must say, trying to participating in debates with that in the air is very discouraging, and I can assure you all that new and younger people on here will also be discouraged as the tone is unwelcoming sometime. I know I can get opinionated but at the same time I can bite my tongue. If you don't have anything nice or relevant to say, it's probably best not to say it.
     
  15. JohnnyFlotsam

    JohnnyFlotsam Premium Member

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    Re: Gay and Bi Brother Masons

    Hmm..., let's see how this sounds...

    "I don't have a problem with Muslim men, but I don't want it in my lodge."
    Or how about,
    "I don't have a problem with African American men, but I don't want them in my Lodge."

    Neither adjective describing the "men" in question is anything that qualifies or disqualifies such a man for membership, and I believe that all (OK, most) would agree that it is highly inappropriate to judge a man by either term. One reflects a choice, the other something he was born with, so we can dispense with that discussion/dodge right now. No, please do not cite your chosen VoSL as a yardstick of moral rectitude. You have been instructed to use at as your "rule and guide". You were not instructed to use it to measure your Brother's suitability. My VoSL doesn't address the issue of sexuality amongst consenting adults, but even if it did, it would be profoundly wrong of me to use it to judge a Brother who does not subscribe to it.

    So, absent some other "moral authority" by which we may rationally make such a judgement (there isn't one, BTW), our Brother's sexuality is simply one of many in a long list of things that just don't matter in a Lodge of Masons.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2013
  16. JohnnyFlotsam

    JohnnyFlotsam Premium Member

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    Agreed.
    You may be a sinner, according to some arbitrary list of proscribed actions in your chosen VoSL. Feel free to judge yourself accordingly, and be secure in the knowledge that I will defend your right to do so. Moreover, know that as your Brother, I will, wherever I can, fervently encourage you to do so. But your spiritual path is yours to walk, not mine. Nor is it that of any of our other Brethren. They and I are are not obligated to live by rules you have chosen. It is, I submit, entirely inappropriate to judge a man's "morality" by anything other than a gauge upon which all reasonable men might agree. Recognizing that such a gauge exists, and that it is at the same time, devilishly difficult to pin down, is one of the most important chores we, as Masons, are sworn to perform, IMHO, for it is in all the dogmatic minutia, the myriad things non-universal, where disharmony arises. Those are things we chip away from our ashlar.
     
  17. MarkR

    MarkR Premium Member

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    All I did was ask a question. I did not champ at the bit to run to anyone's defense. You answered my question.
     
  18. Mason653

    Mason653 Registered User

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    http://beaconofmasoniclight.blogspot.com/2007/10/homosexuality-in-masonic-lodges.html?m=1

    Good read on this topic. I was at lodge EARLY this morning helping with something's needed to be done. Talking with two PM's ones younger and ones older. They pretty much talked bad about this lodge because its mostly gay men. I told one brother. It's just like a Muslim thats a brother. He said I don't have a problem with it but its clear they do not like this lodge. The other brother said he didn't want to admit a two MM's into a meeting because they are gay. Very sad to hear talk like this.

    I don't mind people's beliefs, feelings or religion....but if you are going to walk upright....be a example to other brothers as far as brotherly love, truth, friendship. Start with yourself.

    Have any so called "Christian" or "KT" read the bible? If not....let me quote. Cause I have. From my masonic bible. Kjv or the one written by bro king James. Who some say was homosexual. I'm not going into that...lol


    Mathew Chapter 7:1-5

    JUDGE NOT, that ye be not judged.

    For with what judgement, ye judge ye shall be judged; and with what measure (24in Ga) ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

    And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy BROTHERS eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

    Or how wilt thou say to thy BROTHER, let me pull out the mote out of thine eye?

    THOU HYPOCRITE! First cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brothers eye.

    Now Mathew 7:9-10

    Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread(light), will you give him a stone(BB)?

    Or if he ask a Fish, will he hive him a serpent?

    So not only does the VSL...SACRED LAW....Say don't judge. Possibly written by a homosexual....lol I think highly holier than thou religious people like to think the bible is against homosexuality...that's not what was going on in sodom and gomira(can't spell it...lol) maybe they need to study that story more. I think that ammunition is a blank and is used TOO much without serious study. I think it's the ONLY ammo people can think off. When serious study of the bible and that story says other wise.

    However I don't expect half of the people of this topic to understand the esoteric....most of you think this is a "good ol boys hang out club"...a step up from college frats.,.its much more.

    However back to topic...

    The bible also says "come as you are"

    Why deny a person because they are a "sinner"? To YOUR religion. To the G-D of YOUR understanding...which is not g-ds understanding so don't play g-d.

    If g-d excepts sinners, cleaned them. Made them whole. Turn them into perfect Ashlars. You were a sinner and now "saved" according to your book version. Why would you deny someone in sin the same chance as you to perfect their rough stone? A little bigoted? A little hypocritish(new word) don't you think? A little high minded? Prideful?

    Watch out satan you are falling! Lol another bible story some of you guys should read.

    please don't false flag the light when you ain't shining light(being an example for future gens).

    It's like having a 33rd degree screaming the n word on stage...50x's..I wonder how long he had to hold that in and play along. Lol "oh I'm nice, I don't have a problem with black people or black brothers (don't want them in my lodge thinking in his head)...wolf in sheep clothing types. Tisk tisk...playing like the progressive....pro freedom...but I hate in private...be careful don't blow up in lodge screaming the f word too many times your real colors come out if you bottle it up.

    Satan disguised himself as a angel of light...remember.

    Be yourself if you don't like it just say so. If you do or you are homosexual please be open with it. You don't have to tone down or hide who you are it's America. A "free" country. If you hide it we will never grow. Tolerance comes from understanding. Not hiding.

    Just remember that if you are strongly against it. As a brother you have my strongest love and friendship but please read the passage above. GAOTU is judging you based on how you think, walk, and act here in the physical plane. Walk upright. We all have our rough edges. Lets clean up. No I'm not a super liberal...Iol or anything(don't dig politics to much). I'm a freedom lover.


    Another controversial topic...lol for fun...


    Like Crowley said:

    Do what thou wilt is the whole of the law, love is the law, love under will.

    On that note....93! Lol








    /G\
    FHC
    357
    FLT


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  19. Heart of Stone

    Heart of Stone Registered User

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    I'm the only Muslim in my lodge and l'm treated the same as everyone else.But I think a homosexuals kind of taints the fraternity as a brotherhood, I don't like being judgemental.But I can't bite my tongue on this matter.

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  20. Gabriel Sifius

    Gabriel Sifius Registered User

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    I don't think so


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