My Freemasonry | Freemason Information and Discussion Forum

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

How is your legitimate lodge making good men better?

kwhtraveler41

Registered User
I see a lot of talk on here about clandestine masonry and even heard one Bro say if they do not have a charter they are not my Bro!!! How are you supposed to be sounding right now?
I guarantee you the European Freemasons that we try so hard to emulate do not speak in that manner. Negro Masons like Negro everything else has become quite efficient at self-destruction, self-annihilation, and self intolerance. Until I embarked on the journey of truly understanding the mysteries and beautiful art behind what it is we do my understanding of masonry was limited to how the
greeks view their fraternities, at that time to me it was matching jackets, car emblems, and social functions. Some of yall Prince Hall Affiliate Bros are caught up in arrogance that is misplaced. It's misplaced because no one has bothered to teach you the real history of the Prince Hall lodge. The NGL did not split or decent from PHA, members left the NGL to start sovereign GLs which is the real reason black masonry went unrecognized for so long, but that is really not the point of my post just a fact I wanted to point out. The point is what makes a good Mason a good mason. I have recently healed over to PHO, and I can tell you this much I had never seen the love, willingness to train, and cable tow like was extended from these Bros. The organization I left after I was raised, took months to get a few weeks to get a dues card, took months to get the certificate. Communication, instruction, was minimum, and I was a newly raised mason needing guidance. In the NGL, Bros came down from another city to oversee my healing over, presented me with not only a travel card but training and ritual material, communications, etc. So let's kill the politics, all that matters in the end is whose doing the work and whose not!! Our enemies don't give a f##$$ about your mainstream recognition.
 

Elexir

Registered User
I see a lot of talk on here about clandestine masonry and even heard one Bro say if they do not have a charter they are not my Bro!!! How are you supposed to be sounding right now?
I guarantee you the European Freemasons that we try so hard to emulate do not speak in that manner.

As a European mason (swedish to be precise) I can say that we do actually care who is clandestine and unrecognized.
 

kwhtraveler41

Registered User
Being in Europe doesn't make you a subject matter expert either, since the only thing you are responding to is what you think is debatable I'll follow that up with good for you
in Sweden.
 

kwhtraveler41

Registered User
This post really wasn't a debate. It's just a housekeeping principle that people that like to argue online all day and all night like to ignore. If you don't conduct yourself
like a man of honor and live the freemasonry values. What does it matter where you hail from?? The only point I was making!! The s@@@ we are debating is masonic pillow talk that only excites other masons (I've yet to see one young person say I would join the freemasons but I'm worried about regularity and clandestine sects).. Our real purpose is revealed when we shine so upright people are drawn to us. This new generation is over the rings, emblems, and regalia. What will outshine all that is your character, sincereness, dedication
 

Winter

Premium Member
Regularity and recognition absolutely matter if for no other reason than to protect potential candidates from falling prey to the many organizations that call themselves Freemasonry but are actually little better than money making schemes for unscrupulous individuals preying on the those who do not know better. If we guard the West Gate to prevent unworthy men from entering the Craft then we must guard the rest of gates to keep Freemasonry from being abused by those would set up an unregulated Grand Lodge that extorts money or practices dangerous hazing rituals. Or just to keep those disaffected Brothers who feel slighted from setting up their own little empire to assuage their egos when they feel feel slighted. The abuses by these groups claiming to be Freemasonry who have not been regularly chartered are potentially dangerous not only to the men duped into joining them when they think they are becoming Masons, but to the Craft as a whole when their deeds become public and the people seeing the story do not know how to tell the difference between legitimate Freemasonry and these pretenders.
 

Bloke

Premium Member
........ I have recently healed over to PHO, and I can tell you this much I had never seen the love, willingness to train, and cable tow like was extended from these Bros. The organization I left after I was raised, took months to get a few weeks to get a dues card, took months to get the certificate. Communication, instruction, was minimum, and I was a newly raised mason needing guidance. In the NGL, Bros came down from another city to oversee my healing over, presented me with not only a travel card but training and ritual material, communications, etc. So let's kill the politics, all that matters in the end is whose doing the work and whose not!! Our enemies don't give a f##$$ about your mainstream recognition.
So you left a organisation you perceived as inadequate for a seemingly better one - I think in some small way, you have just made one of the major points about recognition and why some Freemasons get so worked up about it....

It's not "politics", Freemasons should not think in those terms (but they should also not be naive of politics and social context and human nature). It is about regularity (and the Sovereignty of Grand Lodges), it's (hopefully) about consistency and that's important for the reasons Bro Winter stated - some organizations claiming to be "Masonic" are close to scams.

"Mainstream recognition" (Amity) can be very important. ... but you might also be interested in this by "Bro Karen Kidd" https://beacon190.ca/freemasonry/i-am-regular/

And I am wondering what a "NGL" is ?

And I am also wondering who exactly are "our enemies" in this context of "Legitimate Lodges" ?
There is are "enemies" in that issue in my world.... but there are a lot of people who talk a lot of nonsense. There are a lot of people trying to create narratives to establish their own legitmacy (hey, I might be one of them :) )

People in the 1950's and perhaps some places today might use the term "Negro Masons" as you have, but it is a term long out of fashion in Freemasonry. I guess if a man or group Freemasons want to style themselves that way then it's their right to do so...

When I was a younger Freemason, it took me a little while to get my head around the fact that Prince Hall Grand Lodges had to exist- but also took pride in the traditional story they were born of Irish Freemasons. Éirinn go Brách. Thankfully the practice of not recognizing legitimate Prince Hall Grand Lodges is also out of fashion.. I don't see them in terms of race, but in terms of Brothers who belong to another Grand Lodge which mine is in Amity with. Hence I can sit in lodge with them. I am pleased they have preserved their own traditions and assets and not folded into the GLs in their state that were once they only group of Freemasons enjoying the Amity Prince Hall Grand Lodges also now enjoy..

The skin colour, religion, politics, wealth etc etc of a Brother next to me in lodge is irrelevant, all that matters is he is a member of my GL or a GL that my GL is in Amity with. If I am in Lodge with a man from a masonic organisation my GL is not in Amity with, I will be breaking my Grand Lodge's Constitutional Rules to sit in lodge.. I am not into doing that.

And I also do agree with you - what is the most important thing is not what organisations you belong to, but how you conduct yourself as a person, and especially how you treat others.
 

Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
So you left a organisation you perceived as inadequate for a seemingly better one - I think in some small way, you have just made one of the major points about recognition and why some Freemasons get so worked up about it....

It's not "politics", Freemasons should not think in those terms (but they should also not be naive of politics and social context and human nature). It is about regularity (and the Sovereignty of Grand Lodges), it's (hopefully) about consistency and that's important for the reasons Bro Winter stated - some organizations claiming to be "Masonic" are close to scams.

"Mainstream recognition" (Amity) can be very important. ... but you might also be interested in this by "Bro Karen Kidd" https://beacon190.ca/freemasonry/i-am-regular/

And I am wondering what a "NGL" is ?

And I am also wondering who exactly are "our enemies" in this context of "Legitimate Lodges" ?
There is are "enemies" in that issue in my world.... but there are a lot of people who talk a lot of nonsense. There are a lot of people trying to create narratives to establish their own legitmacy (hey, I might be one of them :) )

People in the 1950's and perhaps some places today might use the term "Negro Masons" as you have, but it is a term long out of fashion in Freemasonry. I guess if a man or group Freemasons want to style themselves that way then it's their right to do so...

When I was a younger Freemason, it took me a little while to get my head around the fact that Prince Hall Grand Lodges had to exist- but also took pride in the traditional story they were born of Irish Freemasons. Éirinn go Brách. Thankfully the practice of not recognizing legitimate Prince Hall Grand Lodges is also out of fashion.. I don't see them in terms of race, but in terms of Brothers who belong to another Grand Lodge which mine is in Amity with. Hence I can sit in lodge with them. I am pleased they have preserved their own traditions and assets and not folded into the GLs in their state that were once they only group of Freemasons enjoying the Amity Prince Hall Grand Lodges also now enjoy..

The skin colour, religion, politics, wealth etc etc of a Brother next to me in lodge is irrelevant, all that matters is he is a member of my GL or a GL that my GL is in Amity with. If I am in Lodge with a man from a masonic organisation my GL is not in Amity with, I will be breaking my Grand Lodge's Constitutional Rules to sit in lodge.. I am not into doing that.

And I also do agree with you - what is the most important thing is not what organisations you belong to, but how you conduct yourself as a person, and especially how you treat others.
NGL is National Grand Lodge.

His comments (which we are not allowed to debate ) are a typical response from PHO.

PHA reject the terms Black or Negro Freemasonry. PHA is open to all.

Now, I can’t disagree that men may find more satisfaction in irregular masonry. There is a lesson to be learned there in the fellowship we provide.

As to the claimed “arrogance “ of PHA, the claim that “This new generation is over the rings, emblems, and regalia” would seem to neatly fit that description.
 

Travelling Man91

Registered User
I see a lot of talk on here about clandestine masonry and even heard one Bro say if they do not have a charter they are not my Bro!!! How are you supposed to be sounding right now?
I guarantee you the European Freemasons that we try so hard to emulate do not speak in that manner. Negro Masons like Negro everything else has become quite efficient at self-destruction, self-annihilation, and self intolerance. Until I embarked on the journey of truly understanding the mysteries and beautiful art behind what it is we do my understanding of masonry was limited to how the
greeks view their fraternities, at that time to me it was matching jackets, car emblems, and social functions. Some of yall Prince Hall Affiliate Bros are caught up in arrogance that is misplaced. It's misplaced because no one has bothered to teach you the real history of the Prince Hall lodge. The NGL did not split or decent from PHA, members left the NGL to start sovereign GLs which is the real reason black masonry went unrecognized for so long, but that is really not the point of my post just a fact I wanted to point out. The point is what makes a good Mason a good mason. I have recently healed over to PHO, and I can tell you this much I had never seen the love, willingness to train, and cable tow like was extended from these Bros. The organization I left after I was raised, took months to get a few weeks to get a dues card, took months to get the certificate. Communication, instruction, was minimum, and I was a newly raised mason needing guidance. In the NGL, Bros came down from another city to oversee my healing over, presented me with not only a travel card but training and ritual material, communications, etc. So let's kill the politics, all that matters in the end is whose doing the work and whose not!! Our enemies don't give a f##$$ about your mainstream recognition.

Let’s get something straight, you didn’t heal into PHO (Prince Hall Origin or National Compact) . Healing is the process that an irregular mason goes through to become a regular one, not versa. While it may be said that PHO is regular in origin, it is deemed Irregular and unrecognized by all regular GLS today. IMHO, I believe many of the PH GLS of that day were trying to form what we know now as the “Conference of Grand Masters.” Anyone that studies the structure of freemasonry understands that Sovereignty is an integral part of any GL. Remember, “Every GL is Sovereign”. So I ask, can a GL be sovereign if the GM of said state directly repots and answers to a NG GM ? At some point many of the GLS that fell under the NGL realized that they were no longer sovereign in their state and decided to leave. The National Compact is credited for achieving uniformity among the early PH Grand lodges, so we will give them that. However, there is no Masonic justification to have a GL subordinate to another GL thus forth the dismantlement of the NGL went underway. (Regular GLS leaving the compact and reclaiming their Sovereignty). Lastly, did anyone tell you about the split the (National GL) recently underwent ? So again I ask, who is the legitimate GM since y’all currently have two ? I highly suggest you join a regular GL, that being GLoS or Prince Hall GL (PHA) in the US and if not, quit complaining about other regular jurisdictions if your not willing to join and change them. ☮️
 
Last edited:

Travelling Man91

Registered User
Teachnically, Yes. Case and point: the United Grand Lodges of Germany. It's made up of 5 independent Grand Lodges each headed by their own Grand Master. The VGLvD is headed by a National Grand Master.

Link: https://en.freimaurer.org/

The NGM does not have authority over those GLS. They are still sovereign. “its task is to represent the Grand Lodges as a united entity in foreign countries and for the German press and general public, the VGLvD has been called the ‘foreign ministry’ or the ‘voice’ of German Freemasonry.” The NGM acts as a liaison for the independent German GLS to the rest of the world. Not make decisions for the Lodges themselves. The NGL under PHO or National Compact took sovereignty away from the state GLS.
 
Last edited:

EVG Yumul

Registered User
The NG GM does not have authority over those GLS. They are still sovereign. “its task is to represent the Grand Lodges as a united entity in foreign countries and for the German press and general public, the VGLvD has been called the ‘foreign ministry’ or the ‘voice’ of German Freemasonry.” The NGM acts as a liaison for the independent German GLS to the rest of the world. Not make decisions for the Lodges themselves. The NGL under PHO or National Compact took sovereignty away from the state GLS.
Correct. But still as I've said, technically, the VGLvD's Grand Master could override a subordinate Grand Master's direction. For example, in matters of Recognition, it's the VGLvD that sends and receives Recognition, this is not left to the subordinate Grand Lodges. Of course this is not done it practice, but it can technically happen.
 

Travelling Man91

Registered User
Correct. But still as I've said, technically, the VGLvD's Grand Master could override a subordinate Grand Master's direction. For example, in matters of Recognition, it's the VGLvD that sends and receives Recognition, this is not left to the subordinate Grand Lodges. Of course this is not done it practice, but it can technically happen.

Anything could technically happen at any time. That’s why there are checks and balances in place. The NGM could I suppose override a decision concerning recognition…… however, if the NGM rejected recognition to a Gl that all 5 German GLS wanted to be in recognition with, I don’t believe it would be okay….”well the NGM said no” so we’ll go with it.” There is always the possibility of a GL withdrawing from the NGL and choosing to represent themselves as all other Regular GLS. Keep in mind, these GLS agreed to be apart of this NGL.The job of the NGM is to serve as an Ambassador for the 5 independent German GLS to the rest of the world. Let’s not get away from the main point “ Sovereignty”. “ Sovereignty is an integral part of any GL”. Can a GL be “sovereign” by definition (a group or body of persons or a state having sovereign authority.) but yet answer to…. meaning becoming powerless to another “GM”??
 
Last edited:
Top