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Interesting perspectives

Bloke

Premium Member
...I don't wonder about it often. However, when I do, I go back to that Human Venn thingy. ;-)

I think there is a more than a Venn overlap reflecting how people examining the problem think, I think the Venn overlap is actual operational and actual in the history of Trade Unionism... you can see it (evidence) in England and Australia (Trades Hall Melbourne even has a lodge room in it)..... Anyway, I kinda digress because it is a topic I am interested in... To be clear, we're talking in a post 1717 world, not pre it, and I think the development of Freemasonry probably influenced Trade Unionism more than the other way around... but it goes to the socioeconomic point in the Tavern Lodges, and formation of the Grand Lodge of London and Westminster and the social classes represented within its 4 founding lodges... I think its interesting, but only tells us a small (but important part) of the story, some lodges were comprised of (non-stonemason) trades people, others were comprised more of aristocrats and the wealthy..

Occam's Razor is good, but it is not a definitive test, only a paradigm , using it, for example, some will conclude that photos claimed as showing a human on the moon in 1969 is because a man was sent to the moon, others will conclude the photos were staged. Both conclusion might claim Occam's Razor. The use of Occam's Razor is good, but it only provides a hypothesis and not a evidence based conclusion..
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
I think there is a more than a Venn overlap reflecting how people examining the problem think, I think the Venn overlap is actual operational and actual in the history of Trade Unionism... you can see it (evidence) in England and Australia (Trades Hall Melbourne even has a lodge room in it)..... Anyway, I kinda digress because it is a topic I am interested in... To be clear, we're talking in a post 1717 world, not pre it, and I think the development of Freemasonry probably influenced Trade Unionism more than the other way around... but it goes to the socioeconomic point in the Tavern Lodges, and formation of the Grand Lodge of London and Westminster and the social classes represented within its 4 founding lodges... I think its interesting, but only tells us a small (but important part) of the story, some lodges were comprised of (non-stonemason) trades people, others were comprised more of aristocrats and the wealthy..
Of course there's more too it. However, not having time or incentive to write a best selling book upon the subject, I presented information concisely and without the usual footnotes that would accompany such efforts.

I see the two as inseparable enmeshments brought about by human tendencies. They emerged as a result of what humans do. We get them not because of the end results influencing the whole, but because of human tendencies that bring forth both.
Occam's Razor is good, but it is not a definitive test, only a paradigm , using it, for example, some will conclude that photos claimed as showing a human on the moon in 1969 is because a man was sent to the moon, others will conclude the photos were staged. Both conclusion might claim Occam's Razor. The use of Occam's Razor is good, but it only provides a hypothesis and not a evidence based conclusion..
As I said, it is a tool. And as with all tool use, the results of its use depend upon the mastery and intent of the user.
 
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coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
Funny in a very sad way. So many Brothers mistakenly believe that masonic authors are making money.

The truth is painfully sobering. Rare is the Brother who ever breaks even on what he produces in writing for sale, much less profits. You have to truly love writing with a passion, because surely you will suffer for your efforts.
 

Bloke

Premium Member
Funny in a very sad way. So many Brothers mistakenly believe that masonic authors are making money.

The truth is painfully sobering. Rare is the Brother who ever breaks even on what he produces in writing for sale, much less profits. You have to truly love writing with a passion, because surely you will suffer for your efforts.

I hear you, but it's a naive bro who thinks otherwise. I wonder if Landmarks of our Fathers or Know Thyself made money. They got a lot of exposure and created a buzz. The few authors I know who self publish break even because they balance production quality, demand, the market width, price and value. But that's a tricky equation.

That's where the web is good, because u can self publish almost for free like you and i do, but that means your not likely to get paid..... I've often thought of putting a publication on the Google Bookshelp for $1 or $2 and seeing how it goes....the only way to be a truly professional author in Freemasonry is via a history department at uni, but that narrows the topic. Or maybe writting great fiction with Masonic elements....Even someone like Chris Hodapp would not be earning a sustained living from Masonic authoring.... but he is here and might chime in....

( thread drift!!!!)
 

Warrior1256

Site Benefactor
The truth is painfully sobering. Rare is the Brother who ever breaks even on what he produces in writing for sale, much less profits. You have to truly love writing with a passion, because surely you will suffer for your efforts.
That IS sad.
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
That IS sad.
What's sadder still is being accused by some KIA-FIA* of masonic profiteering... Profiteering!!! Gimme a break! Don't you have to get beyond breaking even before you can be accused of being in that category? And this doesn't even begin to touch upon the other aspects that are part and parcel of profiteering that have to do with unfairness, illegality and black marketeering.

Geez! Just when I thought craft ruffians could not sink any lower in their overall ignorance...

*Know-It-All Freemasonic Assumptive Ignoramus and pronounced: Kee'-ya-Fee'-ya
 
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GKA

Premium Member
I agree coachn, but surely you know brother that you do not fall into that catagory, the profiteering comes from those publications which are not helpful to the brethren, they only serve to bolster the egos of the writers as they attempt to impress others with their abundant knowledge of our craft.
I have even seen this at the GL level and it was confirmed to me by the GM himself, so sad.
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
I agree coachn, but surely you know brother that you do not fall into that catagory, the profiteering comes from those publications which are not helpful to the brethren, they only serve to bolster the egos of the writers as they attempt to impress others with their abundant knowledge of our craft.
I have even seen this at the GL level and it was confirmed to me by the GM himself, so sad.
Thanks!

BTW - I had one past grand master take a look at just one of my books and state blatantly and quite emphatically, "You're making a killing on your books". He did so based upon what he was charged for it in relation to the material costs alone. He took absolutely no consideration whatsoever of the 2 years of my life putting in the research, writing, editing, illustrating and getting it to market.

I wanted to call him a jerk. The truth is, he simply is constitutionally incapable of seeing and valuing the effort required to produce what he had in his hands.

A more suitable word is ignorant ruffian; calling him a smart ruffian would be an insult to ruffians that actually have discerning abilities.

The irony, he put his own books out a year or so later and charged even more.
 

Warrior1256

Site Benefactor
I agree coachn, but surely you know brother that you do not fall into that catagory,
Agreed.
He took absolutely no consideration whatsoever of the 2 years of my life putting in the research, writing, editing, illustrating and getting it to market.
That's why I try to refrain from commenting on subjects that I know nothing about.
calling him a smart ruffian would be an insult to ruffians that actually have discerning abilities.
Lol....funny but true.
he put his own books out a year or so later and charged even more.
Why am I not surprised?
 

Luigi Visentin

Registered User
The author made the usual ignorant assumption: "Freemasonry" existed long before 1717.
I'm likely one of the ignorants but I think that the author is correct, at least till fourteenth / fifteenth century. It is true that from 1717 Freemasonry has changed and the modern type of Freemasonry is likely different from the old one, but I think that at least till Ashmole ancient Freemasonry was still alive. The so called "Antients" and the so called "Moderns" were both likely "modern Freemasons".
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
I'm likely one of the ignorants but I think that the author is correct, at least till fourteenth / fifteenth century. It is true that from 1717 Freemasonry has changed and the modern type of Freemasonry is likely different from the old one, but I think that at least till Ashmole ancient Freemasonry was still alive. The so called "Antients" and the so called "Moderns" were both likely "modern Freemasons".
It's a matter of definition and the meaning that most freemasons place upon the words "mason" and "freemason'.

Freemasons think of the two as synonymous and are taught through inculcation and lore that they are the same.

Masons understand that there is "masonry" and there is "freemasonry". The former has existed since man began chipping rocks. The latter since they started putting theatrical plays called ritual together using masonic lexicon.
 

Warrior1256

Site Benefactor
Masons understand that there is "masonry" and there is "freemasonry". The former has existed since man began chipping rocks. The latter since they started putting theatrical plays called ritual together using masonic lexicon.
True, and as another Brother stated since for lodges banded together in 1717 to for the GLE obviously Freemasonry existed before 1717.
 
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