Interesting perspectives

[coachn]

True, and as another Brother stated since for lodges banded together in 1717 to for the GLE obviously Freemasonry existed before 1717.

<cough> Lodges were obviously meeting before 1717.

However, "Freemasonic" lodges could not have met prior to this time since the word "freemason" was only invented and used shortly after 1717 to refer to members of the "Society of Free & Accepted Masons".

 

[GKA]

True, and as another Brother stated since for lodges banded together in 1717 to for the GLE obviously Freemasonry existed before 1717.

It is my personal belief that Freemasonry has an origin much earlier than 1717, I try to refrain from taking that position in discussions because it almost always leads to a heated debate which deviates significantly from the original context of that discussion, however, for those brothers so inclined to research this facinating aspect of "OUR" history, may I suggest a look into the ancient arts of cartography, surveying and architecture.

 

[coachn]

... for those brothers so inclined to research this facinating aspect of "OUR" history, may I suggest a look into the ancient arts of cartography, surveying and architecture.

None of which have anything to do with what members have collectively done within the Freemasonic order since the beginning of the PGL era. Prior to that time, Stone Craft Masons would have aspects of this involved in their work.

 

[Luigi Visentin]

However, "Freemasonic" lodges could not have met prior to this time since the word "freemason" was only invented and used shortly after 1717 to refer to members of the "Society of Free & Accepted Masons".

If Trinity Tripos is not a forgery its use is at least dated 1688.
Honestly I do not believeve that the use of "free" makes any difference. Also the "free companies" which fought in Italy in the fourteenth century did not use always the "free" in front of the name of their companies but their underlined that they were "free companies".

 

[GKA]

True, but I think that the math precedes the application, recall that there was a wood henge before the Stone henge, both requires a high level understanding to build,
Point is this......nearly all of the skilled crafts formed guilds, the stone mason guild must have come after those of surveying and cartography, the tools are the same, the application is different.

 

[coachn]

...Honestly I do not believeve that the use of "free" makes any difference. Also the "free companies" which fought in Italy in the fourteenth century did not use always the "free" in front of the name of their companies but their underlined that they were "free companies".

Once you do not believe the use of "free", and more importantly how it is used within context, doesn't make a difference, any further conversation along those points is pointless.

 

[coachn]

True, but I think that the math precedes the application, recall that there was a wood henge before the Stone henge, both requires a high level understanding to build,
Point is this......nearly all of the skilled crafts formed guilds, the stone mason guild must have come after those of surveying and cartography, the tools are the same, the application is different.

Yes. But the use of these tools for totally different reasons seems to not discourage those zealots seeking to tie these entirely different groups together as if one turned into the other.

Freemasonry is no more a speculative version of Stonecraft than actors plying their art portraying civil war characters on the silver screen are speculative forms of civil war solders.

 

[Luigi Visentin]

Likely my use of the word "believe" is wrong. My "believe" is simply what I have got from my researches which do not indicate a particular difference if it is used with the "-" or without or when the term "free" has started to be used massively. In any case I do not make religious wars therefore the matter is closed for me too.

 

[LK600]

However, "Freemasonic" lodges could not have met prior to this time since the word "freemason" was only invented and used shortly after 1717 to refer to members of the "Society of Free & Accepted Masons".

If a few lodges came together in 1717 to form "X"...... than how can there be any form of an argument that some version of speculative "freemasonic" organization(s) didn't take place prior? You kind of need one for the other to take place. Is the argument that although these "lodges" did exist prior to 1717, they have little resemblance to present day?

 

[Elexir]

If a few lodges came together in 1717 to form "X"...... than how can there be any form of an argument that some version of speculative "freemasonic" organization(s) didn't take place prior? You kind of need one for the other to take place. Is the argument that although these "lodges" did exist prior to 1717, they have little resemblance to present day?

In all fairness this is most likley, we must remember that things changed a lot in the early years. The most famous after the GL system was added was the addition of a third degree.

 

[Bloke]

.....Freemasonry is no more a speculative version of Stonecraft than actors plying their art portraying civil war characters on the silver screen are speculative forms of civil war solders.

Those actors kinda are in some ways, acting out an imagined reality to convey a message and/Or entertainment... in some ways the actors and Freemasons are very similar - both proxies of an imagined, often idealised reality.

( mind you, I might not like the above when I read it later, but it's a first reaction thought)
*content in brackets edited for meaning just after post

 

[GKA]

I like to think that Freemasonry is greater than the sum of its parts, it has been boiled down to what we have today, but it must have come from something far greater

 

[Bloke]

Once you do not believe the use of "free", and more importantly how it is used within context, doesn't make a difference, any further conversation along those points is pointless.

I think there should be no difference between the words Freemasonry vrs Masonry.... and the difference is a construct not all see or use. That does not make them ignorant, just different. I don't use the nomenclature the way you do Coach, but it certainly is a useful paradigm.

 

[Bloke]

I like to think that Freemasonry is greater than the sum of its parts, it has been boiled down to what we have today, but it must have come from something far greater

I agree, and that "something" does not have to be a "mystery school" just deep and beautiful philosophy... at the core, i think that's what all Freemasons should struggle to understand and practise.

 

[Bloke]

If Trinity Tripos is not a forgery its use is at least dated 1688...

http://www.irishmasonichistory.com/the-trinity-tripos-1688.html

 

[coachn]

I think there should be no difference between the words Freemasonry vrs Masonry.... and the difference is a construct not all see or use. That does not make them ignorant, just different. I don't use the nomenclature the way you do Coach, but it certainly is a useful paradigm.

Obviously, one can prescribe the nomenclature as one may like to.

However, what I have done is not prescribe. I have merely described and documented clear differences in usage over the years, especially when it comes to the society in relation to what it professes is its origins. To most members there is no difference.

Moreover, there is a clear difference for those who have taken the time to venture further into the research than the majority.

 

[Bloke]

Obviously, one can prescribe the nomenclature as one may like to.

However, what I have done is not prescribe. I have merely described and documented clear differences in usage over the years, especially when it comes to the society in relation to what it professes is its origins. To most members there is no difference.

Moreover, there is a clear difference for those who have taken the time to venture further into the research than the majority.

My mistake, should have been "prescribe" not "prescribe".

Either way, I think we agree the primary work of Freemasonry is not learning ritual, but using it as a tool (and anything else honest) for self improvement..

 

[Ripcord22A]

Why do brethren consider that the outer form of Freemasonry is its most important aspect?

What does it matter what its modern name is when the essence is so largely ignored.

Here is Albert Mackey:

"But he who expects to arrive at a satisfactory solution of this inquiry must first—as a preliminary absolutely necessary to success—release himself from the influence of an error into which novices in Masonic philosophy are too apt to fall. He must not confound the doctrine of Freemasonry with its outward and extrinsic form. He must not suppose that certain usages and ceremonies, which exist at this day, but which, even now, are subject to extensive variations in different countries, constitute the sum and substance of Freemasonry. .. But it must be always remembered that the ceremony is not the substance. It is but the outer garment which covers and perhaps adorns it, as clothing does the human figure. ...And so take from Masonry these external ceremonies, and you still have remaining its philosophy and science. These have, of course, always continued the same, while the ceremonies have varied in different ages, and still vary in different countries" The Symbolism of Freemasonry

If Mackey is correct then tracking the outer format of Freemasonry is of little value. Equally tracking the ritual back through history does not add much value.

So what is the philosophy and science of Freemasonry that has remained unchanged over the ages?

We finally have something we agree on again brother except that we differ on how and what these things are.
What you have just quoted is essentially what coach has been trying to say, i think and i dont mean to put words in his mouth. The ritual is just there to help tell a story and if you listen amd study the story you will eventually get the moral of it and be able to make yourself a better version of yourself

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[Ripcord22A]

"prescribe" not "prescribe"

???


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[Bloke]

???


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Just ignore me... I was doing gazillion things at once and proscribe and prescribe are at the core of another discussion via email.. nothing to do with this thread !