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Masons on sight
- Thread starter Les Verts
- Start date
jermy Bell
Registered User
Must be a price hall thing. No one can be a made a regular mason on sight, without been given the 3 degrees of ritual.
So my guess is Mr. Shaq is not a Mason.
So my guess is Mr. Shaq is not a Mason.
Tylerl90
Registered User
It’s not only a PHA thing. From my understanding, the MWGL of Florida has a Mason at sight directive in its digest. Only the Grand Master can do it, and it’s exceedingly rare to the point that it’s not surprising nobody would know about it.
Edit: It is, in fact, within the ability of the Grand Master only to make a Mason-at-sight with certain Masonic Constitutional limits.
Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry mobile app
Edit: It is, in fact, within the ability of the Grand Master only to make a Mason-at-sight with certain Masonic Constitutional limits.
Sent from my iPhone using My Freemasonry mobile app
Last edited:
Brother Mackey disagrees with you, and specifically notes this power of the GM as -his- Eighth Landmark. President Taft (Ohio) and McArthur (D.C.) are listed as made at sight.
And, I note particularly, it was widely reported that the GM of Illinois made Cliff Truman Daniel a mason at sight In December, 2011. Isn’t that your GL?
jermy Bell
Registered User
Ok, I understand now.
The GL FL did one a few years back, I was there.
The GM did the right thing and required the brothers in attendance to vote on the candidate AND required the candidate to take all three obligations.
Each degree charge was also read after each OB.
Had the GM NOT required the vote and the candidate to take the OBs, it would have been a dishonor to all Freemasons, and, from all that I have read up on this special GM power, it would have been not in line with what has occurred in the past.
Points that must be honored for "mason to be made on site/sight" to be legit:
1) The GM must convene a lodge of MMs.
2) The Brothers attending must vote on the candidate AND approve his entry.
3) The Obligations MUST be taken by the candidate.
BTW - The candidate had just turned 18, was just told he was in remission from a VERY bad case of cancer and he was (I believe) an Eagle Scout (or something WAY UP THERE!). His father was there to hand over a family MM ring (I believe it was a beloved uncle's).
Not a dry eye existed that evening.
(I was the musician ;-) )
The GM did the right thing and required the brothers in attendance to vote on the candidate AND required the candidate to take all three obligations.
Each degree charge was also read after each OB.
Had the GM NOT required the vote and the candidate to take the OBs, it would have been a dishonor to all Freemasons, and, from all that I have read up on this special GM power, it would have been not in line with what has occurred in the past.
Points that must be honored for "mason to be made on site/sight" to be legit:
1) The GM must convene a lodge of MMs.
2) The Brothers attending must vote on the candidate AND approve his entry.
3) The Obligations MUST be taken by the candidate.
BTW - The candidate had just turned 18, was just told he was in remission from a VERY bad case of cancer and he was (I believe) an Eagle Scout (or something WAY UP THERE!). His father was there to hand over a family MM ring (I believe it was a beloved uncle's).
Not a dry eye existed that evening.
(I was the musician ;-) )
In Mackey’s opinion (Encyclopedia, 941-943), it is done in this manner:
“ It is not to be supposed that the Grand Master can retire with a profane into a private room, and there, without assistance, confer the degrees of Freemasonry upon him. No such prerogative exists, and yet many believe that this is the so much talked of right of "making Masons at sight". The real mode and the only mode of exercising the prerogative is this: The Grand Master summons to his assistance not less than six other masons, convenes a Lodge, and without any previous probation, but in sight of the candidate, confers the degrees upon him, after which he dissolves the Lodge and dismisses the brethren. Lodges thus convened for special purposes are called occasional lodges. This is the only way in which any Grand Master within the records of the institution has ever been known to "make a Mason at sight". The prerogative is dependent upon that of granting dispensations to open and hold Lodges. If the Grand Master has the power of granting to any other Mason the privilege of presiding over Lodges working by his dispensation, he may assume this privilege of presiding to himself; and as no one can deny his right to revoke his dispensation granted to a number of brethren at a distance, and to dissolve the Lodge at his pleasure, it will scarcely be contended that he may not revoke his dispensation for a Lodge over which he himself has been presiding, within a day, and dissolve the Lodge as soon as the business for which he had assembled it is accomplished. The making of Masons at sight is only the conferring of the degrees by the Grand Master, at once, in an occasional Lodge, constituted by his dispensing power for the purpose, and over which he presides in person.“
“ It is not to be supposed that the Grand Master can retire with a profane into a private room, and there, without assistance, confer the degrees of Freemasonry upon him. No such prerogative exists, and yet many believe that this is the so much talked of right of "making Masons at sight". The real mode and the only mode of exercising the prerogative is this: The Grand Master summons to his assistance not less than six other masons, convenes a Lodge, and without any previous probation, but in sight of the candidate, confers the degrees upon him, after which he dissolves the Lodge and dismisses the brethren. Lodges thus convened for special purposes are called occasional lodges. This is the only way in which any Grand Master within the records of the institution has ever been known to "make a Mason at sight". The prerogative is dependent upon that of granting dispensations to open and hold Lodges. If the Grand Master has the power of granting to any other Mason the privilege of presiding over Lodges working by his dispensation, he may assume this privilege of presiding to himself; and as no one can deny his right to revoke his dispensation granted to a number of brethren at a distance, and to dissolve the Lodge at his pleasure, it will scarcely be contended that he may not revoke his dispensation for a Lodge over which he himself has been presiding, within a day, and dissolve the Lodge as soon as the business for which he had assembled it is accomplished. The making of Masons at sight is only the conferring of the degrees by the Grand Master, at once, in an occasional Lodge, constituted by his dispensing power for the purpose, and over which he presides in person.“
Tylerl90
Registered User
It’s prohibited in Utah as well.
Note the way I referred to Br. Mackey and -his- landmarks. There is no resolution as to which list to accept. Utah doesn’t even have such a list.
Landmarks are NOT universally the same OR accepted within all jurisdictions.
FWIW:
http://bessel.org/landmark.htm
Ain't that the truth!
Art. 35. (35). Mason at Sight Prohibited.
The Grand Master has no power or authority to make Masons at sight. This Grand Lodge will not recognize any mode of making Masons in this Jurisdiction other than in a regular Lodge and after previous investigation, regular election and due inquiry into the character of the candidate.
Tylerl90
Registered User
Bloke
Premium Member
Mackey sounds like a lawyer in this one
Bloke
Premium Member
Bro Glen. I would be grateful if you could define what in your opinion is "an occasional lodge".
The first time I met the term is in relation to Freemasons meeting on the Goldfields in the 1850's ( a different time) here in Victoria to convey degrees. They did not have a warrant. They had no list of members, only attendees. They were spontaneously formed to "make" a Freemason in degree ceremonies. The past aside, and as a concept rather than referencing a specific rule, today, would you say, must a Grand Master preside or authorize over an "occasional lodge" ? If a group of Freemasons formed an "occasional lodge" which did not perform a degree, do you think they would generally fall foul of most Constitutions ?
We get around this whole question by having "social nights", "table lodges", "lectures" and "study groups" some of which will demonstrate a degree (even using alternative ritual) but they cannot Initiate, Pass or Raise, to do so would obviously be a Masonic Offense (under our rules as would "Opening a Lodge")... but I sometimes wonder about the "occasional lodge" in the modern world, esp for Freemasons who don't have rules around them.. Are they purely the prerogative of Grand Masters and their appointees working at the specific direction of their Grand Master ?
In my view, it is a power of the GM. To further quote from Br. Mackey:
'an Occasional Lodge,' specially convened by him, and consisting of such Master Masons as he may call together for that purpose only; the Lodge ceasing to exist as soon as the initiation, passing, or raising has been accomplished, and the Brethren have been dismissed by the Grand Master.
"In 1731, Lord Lovell, being Grand Master, he 'formed an Occasional Lodge at Houghton Hall, Sir Robert Walpole's House in Norfolk,' and there made the Duke of Lorraine, afterwards Emperor of Germany, and the Duke of Newcastle, Master Masons.
"The initiation, passing and raising of Frederick, Prince of Wales, in 1737, was done in an 'Occasional Lodge,' over which Dr. Desaguliers presided, but this cannot properly be called a 'making at sight,' because Dr. Desaguilers at the time was a Past Grand Master, and not the actual Grand Master at the time. He most probably acted under the dispensation of the Grand Master, who at that time was the Earl of Darnley.
"In 1766, Lord Blaney, who was then Grand Master, convened an 'Occasional Lodge,' and initiated, passed and raised the Duke of Gloucester.
"Again in 1767, John Salter, the Deputy then acting as Grand Master, convened an 'Occasional Lodge,' and conferred the three degrees on the Duke of Cumberland.
"In 1787 the Prince of Wales was made a Mason 'at an Occasional Lodge, convened,' says Preston, 'for the purpose at the Star and Garter, at Pall Mall, over which the Duke of Cumberland (Grand Master) presided in person.'
"It has been said, however, by those who deny the existence of this prerogative, that these 'Occasional Lodges' were only Special Communications of the Grand Lodge, and the 'makings' are thus supposed to have taken place under the authority of that body, and not of the Grand Master. The facts, however, do not sustain this position. Throughout the Book of Constitutions, other Communications, whether Stated or Special, are distinctly recorded as Communications of the Grand Lodge; while these 'Occasional Lodges' appear only to have been convened by the Grand Master for the purpose of making Masons. Besides, in many instances, the Lodge was held at a different place from that of the Grand Lodge, and the officers were not, with the exception of the Grand Master, the officers of the Grand Lodge. Thus the 'Occasional Lodge' which initiated the Duke of Lorraine was held at the residence of Sir Robert Walpole, in Norfolk, while the Grand Lodge always met in London. In 1766 the Grand Lodge held its Communication at the Crown and Anchor, but the 'Occasional Lodge' which in the same year conferred the degrees on the Duke of Gloucester, was convened at the Horn tavern. In the following year, the Lodge which initiated the Duke of Cumberland was convened at the 'Thatched House' tavern, the Grand Lodge continuing to meet at the Crown and Anchor.
"But, without doubt, a conclusive argument may be drawn from the dispensing powers of the Grand Master, which has never been denied. No one has doubted, or can doubt, the inherent right of the Grand Master to constitute Lodges by Dispensation, and in these Lodges so constituted, Masons may be legally entered, passed and raised. This is done every day. A constitutional number of Master Masons applying to the Grand Master, he grants them a Dispensation, under authority of which they proceed to open and hold a Lodge, and to make Masons. This Lodge is, however, admitted to be the mere creature of the Grand Master, for it is in his power at any time to revoke the Dispensation he had granted, and thus to dissolve the Lodge."
End quote.
'an Occasional Lodge,' specially convened by him, and consisting of such Master Masons as he may call together for that purpose only; the Lodge ceasing to exist as soon as the initiation, passing, or raising has been accomplished, and the Brethren have been dismissed by the Grand Master.
"In 1731, Lord Lovell, being Grand Master, he 'formed an Occasional Lodge at Houghton Hall, Sir Robert Walpole's House in Norfolk,' and there made the Duke of Lorraine, afterwards Emperor of Germany, and the Duke of Newcastle, Master Masons.
"The initiation, passing and raising of Frederick, Prince of Wales, in 1737, was done in an 'Occasional Lodge,' over which Dr. Desaguliers presided, but this cannot properly be called a 'making at sight,' because Dr. Desaguilers at the time was a Past Grand Master, and not the actual Grand Master at the time. He most probably acted under the dispensation of the Grand Master, who at that time was the Earl of Darnley.
"In 1766, Lord Blaney, who was then Grand Master, convened an 'Occasional Lodge,' and initiated, passed and raised the Duke of Gloucester.
"Again in 1767, John Salter, the Deputy then acting as Grand Master, convened an 'Occasional Lodge,' and conferred the three degrees on the Duke of Cumberland.
"In 1787 the Prince of Wales was made a Mason 'at an Occasional Lodge, convened,' says Preston, 'for the purpose at the Star and Garter, at Pall Mall, over which the Duke of Cumberland (Grand Master) presided in person.'
"It has been said, however, by those who deny the existence of this prerogative, that these 'Occasional Lodges' were only Special Communications of the Grand Lodge, and the 'makings' are thus supposed to have taken place under the authority of that body, and not of the Grand Master. The facts, however, do not sustain this position. Throughout the Book of Constitutions, other Communications, whether Stated or Special, are distinctly recorded as Communications of the Grand Lodge; while these 'Occasional Lodges' appear only to have been convened by the Grand Master for the purpose of making Masons. Besides, in many instances, the Lodge was held at a different place from that of the Grand Lodge, and the officers were not, with the exception of the Grand Master, the officers of the Grand Lodge. Thus the 'Occasional Lodge' which initiated the Duke of Lorraine was held at the residence of Sir Robert Walpole, in Norfolk, while the Grand Lodge always met in London. In 1766 the Grand Lodge held its Communication at the Crown and Anchor, but the 'Occasional Lodge' which in the same year conferred the degrees on the Duke of Gloucester, was convened at the Horn tavern. In the following year, the Lodge which initiated the Duke of Cumberland was convened at the 'Thatched House' tavern, the Grand Lodge continuing to meet at the Crown and Anchor.
"But, without doubt, a conclusive argument may be drawn from the dispensing powers of the Grand Master, which has never been denied. No one has doubted, or can doubt, the inherent right of the Grand Master to constitute Lodges by Dispensation, and in these Lodges so constituted, Masons may be legally entered, passed and raised. This is done every day. A constitutional number of Master Masons applying to the Grand Master, he grants them a Dispensation, under authority of which they proceed to open and hold a Lodge, and to make Masons. This Lodge is, however, admitted to be the mere creature of the Grand Master, for it is in his power at any time to revoke the Dispensation he had granted, and thus to dissolve the Lodge."
End quote.
Bloke
Premium Member
Thanks Bro Glen
Thanks for the quote from Mackey.
The comment around Dermott made here https://freemasonry.bcy.ca/texts/masons_at_sight.html was interesting;
"The form of the expression "making Masons at sight" is borrowed from Laurence Dermott, the Grand Secretary of the Atholl Grand Lodge; "making Masons in an Occasional Lodge" is the phrase used by Anderson and his subsequent editors. Brother Dermott (Ahiman Rezon), commenting on the thirteenth of the old regulations, which prescribes that Fellow Crafts and Master Masons cannot be made in a private Lodge except by the Dispensation of the Grand Master, says: "This is a very ancient regulation, but seldom put in practise, new Masons being generally made at private Lodges; however, the Right Worshipful Grand Master has full power and authority to make, or cause to be made, in his worship’s presence, Free and Accepted Masons at sight, and such making is good. But they cannot be made out of his worship’s presence without a written Dispensation for that purpose. Nor can his worship oblige any warranted Lodge to receive the person so made, if the members should declare against him or them; but in such case the Right Worshipful Grand Master may grant them a Warrant and form them into a new Lodge."
(Also noting Anderson Const (well, first edition) dates from 1723 and Dermott's Ahiman Rezon 1756.)