leevesterclay
Registered User
who gave the Grand Lodge of England a charter?
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some one asked
- Thread starter leevesterclay
- Start date
MarkR
Premium Member
Generally (I know there are exceptions) Grand Lodges are not "chartered." They are created by constituent lodges in a geographical territory not already under the jurisdiction of a Grand Lodge. UGLE was created by a group of London and Westminster lodges who got together and started it, just like my Grand Lodge was created when there were enough regular lodges in the jurisdiction of Minnesota to start a Grand Lodge. There were three lodges in the Minnesota Territory (not yet a state) that had been chartered by Illinois, Wisconsin, and Ohio. Those lodges started the Grand Lodge of Minnesota, and then surrendered their initial warrants to the respective grand lodges listed, and took on new warrants as lodges numbered 1, 2, and 3.
I suppose that next you'll be asking if we'd accept help from an irregular Mason when we're broken down on the side of the road (and no, I would not be giving the GHSoD because of car trouble.) All of these arguments from irregular Masonic groups have been made over and over and over again. If you're here just to argue with us, I suggest that you reconsider.
I suppose that next you'll be asking if we'd accept help from an irregular Mason when we're broken down on the side of the road (and no, I would not be giving the GHSoD because of car trouble.) All of these arguments from irregular Masonic groups have been made over and over and over again. If you're here just to argue with us, I suggest that you reconsider.
The Grand Lodge of London and Westminster was constituted (not chartered) or formed in 1717 and charters and warrants for Lodges didn't exist back then, they developed as the Grand Lodge system itself developed and spread around the world. What you might be thinking about is "recognition" of Grand Lodges whereby they are considered "regular" and of course there needed to be more Grand Lodges who wanted to be recognised before that could happen.
The standards of regularity from 300 years ago are not those used today. Just like the civil law, masonic law evolves.
Really, your disingenuous and insulting statements aren’t going to gain traction in this group. You are still going to be angry that your obedience is considered irregular.
Really, your disingenuous and insulting statements aren’t going to gain traction in this group. You are still going to be angry that your obedience is considered irregular.
Yep! AND UGLE was formed around 1813 when The Grand Lodge of London and Westminster (The Moderns) and that other GL, "The Grand Lodge of England According to the Old Institutions" made up of The Ancients, merged.
UGLE was NOT formed around 1717. That was a different GL.
I'm not sure why you're making that response to me, I'm very aware of the history and development of my Grand Lodge but more importantly I did not make reference to the UGLE anywhere in my reply??? Did you just not actually read my reply?
Just agreeing with you and adding the UGLE info as it was stated in the thread above that it was "created by a group of London and Westminster lodges". (Not by you though)
Bloke
Premium Member
Putting aside any questions on the 1717 date (and shortened names).... Do you think I am grossly incorrect if I say:
"The first modern Grand Lodge was founded in 1717 and today, it is called the United Grand Lodge of England"
I often wonder about this.. but it is a continuous line (methinks) and sometimes useful to reduce complicated things to simple statements in an elevator pitch..
Do you think there is a more accurate way of saying this in 20 words or less ? (without mentioning Moderns and Antients and the Union of 1813
Our of interest I went to the source, and they say
"The Premier Grand Lodge, which became the United Grand Lodge of England, was founded at the Goose and Gridiron Pub in London in 1717."
Source https://www.ugle.org.uk/about-us/about-ugle
But they are 4 words over
"The first modern Grand Lodge was founded in 1717 and today, it is called the United Grand Lodge of England"
I often wonder about this.. but it is a continuous line (methinks) and sometimes useful to reduce complicated things to simple statements in an elevator pitch..
Do you think there is a more accurate way of saying this in 20 words or less ? (without mentioning Moderns and Antients and the Union of 1813
Our of interest I went to the source, and they say
"The Premier Grand Lodge, which became the United Grand Lodge of England, was founded at the Goose and Gridiron Pub in London in 1717."
Source https://www.ugle.org.uk/about-us/about-ugle
But they are 4 words over
Take out the name of the Pub and you're there: "The Premier Grand Lodge, which became the United Grand Lodge of England, was founded in London in 1717".Putting aside any questions on the 1717 date (and shortened names).... Do you think I am grossly incorrect if I say:
"The first modern Grand Lodge was founded in 1717 and today, it is called the United Grand Lodge of England"
I often wonder about this.. but it is a continuous line (methinks) and sometimes useful to reduce complicated things to simple statements in an elevator pitch..
Do you think there is a more accurate way of saying this in 20 words or less ? (without mentioning Moderns and Antients and the Union of 1813
Our of interest I went to the source, and they say
"The Premier Grand Lodge, which became the United Grand Lodge of England, was founded at the Goose and Gridiron Pub in London in 1717."
Source https://www.ugle.org.uk/about-us/about-ugle
But they are 4 words over
Keith C
Registered User
It is likely pedantic but IMO you need to mention both the Modern and Ancient Grand Lodges for the statement to make sense. i.e. Would it be proper to say "The Massachusetts Bay Colony, Which became the United States of America, was established in 1630"?
"The Premier Grand Lodge, which merged with another Grand Lodge in ~1813 to become the United Grand Lodge of England, was founded in London in 1717".
OR
"The Premier Grand Lodge merged with another Grand Lodge in ~1813 to become the United Grand Lodge of England."
The difficulty is that if you feel the Antients need to be mentioned what about the Grand Lodge of all England at York
To be frank if you actually want to be this pedantic, it is an impossible elevator pitch because you're all missing out too much information. There had actually been six grand Lodges in England
before 1830. Two of which actually went dark and then came back to life again years later, one of which may well have been the inspiration for your York Rite degree system.
Bloke
Premium Member
Six ! ?
Tell me more Brother ! (And before 1813 ?)
I did google (but not very hard) and found this https://www.lodge-of-friendship-no44.co.uk/the-eight-grand-lodges-of-england
I find the "Wigan Rebellion" aka Wigan Grand Lodge (and I think it depends on your view) very interesting. I've done a lot of reading on it in the past..
You can tell that's from Lancashire because they choose to ignore the old Lodge at York which declared itself a Grand Lodge in 1725 and was knocking about until the early 1790 as well as the Grand Lodge of All England South of the River Trent of William Preston fame in 1779. The thing to be aware of is that as each of these Grand Lodges went out of existence their remaining Lodges were absorbed into the UGLE.