Two Scariest Lies in Our World Right Now

Discussion in 'Philosophy, Religion and Spirituality' started by Blake Bowden, Sep 7, 2013.

  1. Blake Bowden

    Blake Bowden Administrator Staff Member

    5,676
    1,036
    113
    To my Christian Brethren, what are your thoughts?

    [video=youtube;hlNx7m1KW7Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlNx7m1KW7Y[/video]​
     
  2. JJones

    JJones Moderator Staff Member

    1,146
    622
    113
    Hm...I was on a typing spree before I glanced up and saw the post above mine. I don't agree with 100% of the video but I certainly believe there are repercussions for our actions/inactions. I've decided not to go into specifics at the risk of alienating any of my brethren though. :)
     
  3. widows son

    widows son Premium Member

    1,828
    18
    38
    If we are not good, then what about the Masonic requirement of being a good man prior to becoming a better one? Does this no longer apply since no matter what we do, we are ultimately still bad?
     
  4. marty15chris

    marty15chris Premium Member

    71
    14
    28
    I'm only going to comment on the 1st "Lie". That is that we are told we are all good when it's not true. I can't speak for anyone else but I don't buy his lie. Stating that we are all bad as per 2 bible verses. I know that I am a good person, not because anyone as told me so but because of what I believe in my heart. That sacred place where all masonic journeys begin.

    For the 2nd lie, that differs depending on your belief, enough said.


    Freemason Connect HD
     
  5. JohnnyFlotsam

    JohnnyFlotsam Premium Member

    485
    62
    28
    This is the very basis of evangelical Christianity - We are all born "bad" and can never be "good enough" to enter Heaven, and that "salvation" can be obtained by performing certain rites and professing a belief in the redeeming power of their messiah. That second part is the scary one, to me. It's like a get-out-of-jail-free card that promises salvation to anyone, no matter how truly "bad" they are, if they just say the magic words. It removes personal responsibility from the equation. I choose to believe differently, that (in one way or another) the GAOTU "rewards virtue and punishes vice".
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2013
  6. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

    2,120
    2,103
    133
    <cough cough> His (this poor misguiding soul in the video) is a black and white extremist view based upon many false assumptions and extreme ones at that. Case in point: He claims that by falling short (sin), one is bad. What a crock! People fall short all the time. This does not mean that they are bad. It only means they have room for improvement.

    This guy is a religious terrorist. He is part of the group of extreme people Good and Proper Masonic Education protects us from - and I am not referring to the rudimentary Proficiencies that are merely intended to install Knowledge of Ritual into our heads and hearts.

    If you did the Trivial FC Work, you recognize his flawed Grammar, Logic and Rhetoric. What's more, if you did your emotional management Work (EA), you recognize the emotional blackmail he is employing to convince you to think his way.

    BTW - Why should we not have natural consequences for falling short. When those consequences are provided by a world created by a loving Father-Creator, we would learn so that we could do better.

    This Fraternity loses far too many Brothers to this type of insanity because we don't require them do the EA and FC Work before they are formally Raised. The sad part of this is that there are Master Masons who believe this guy's terroristic ploys because they haven't done the Work before they were given the title of Master and don't know any better.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2013
    Derek Harvey likes this.
  7. rebis

    rebis Premium Member

    155
    28
    18
    Genesis 1:31
    "And God saw every thing that he had made , and, behold, it was very good..."

    This includes man...made in his own image (Or their own image, since Elohim is plural)
     
    Derek Harvey likes this.
  8. Blake Bowden

    Blake Bowden Administrator Staff Member

    5,676
    1,036
    113
    Respectful responses...good discussion.
     
  9. bama275

    bama275 Registered User

    8
    0
    1
    I am able to look this from different perspectives. I will not argue for or against his beliefs. They are his own. However, I would submit that are a couple of other beliefs which are more destructive. 1. The concept of moral relativism that tries to blur or remove the lines between good and evil. 2. The belief by many that evil does not exist, or is at least a creation of human thought.

    One cannot subdue passions or keep within bounds if those boundaries are not defined.defoned.Too many youth


    My Freemasonry HD
     
  10. bama275

    bama275 Registered User

    8
    0
    1
    Sorry, my IPhone had a hiccup.

    Basically, I was saying that too many of today's youth live in a world where these concepts are not taught.

    You had better believe that there is evil in the world. Everything is not gray.


    My Freemasonry HD
     
  11. rebis

    rebis Premium Member

    155
    28
    18
    Psalm 82:6
    "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."

    "Good" can not be without calamity.

    Without "bad", "good" can not be perceived and vice versa.



    My Freemasonry HD
     
  12. BryanMaloney

    BryanMaloney Premium Member

    1,246
    234
    63
    While this preacher certainly errs in the extremity of his interpretation, I see errors to the extreme in opposing him. Both extremes come down to ignorance of context. In the modern day, we Americans are indoctrinated to use "good" and "evil" in absolute and legalistic senses. That is, if you are "not good" or are "evil", then you are the worst of the worst, the lowest of the low, no room for middle ground. But that is not how Scripture used these concepts. "Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!" (Matthew, 7:9). These are the actual words of Christ. He calls all who hear him "evil" even though they would never give their children stones for bread or a serpent for fish. Is this enough for modern people to utterly reject Christ? Some do--foolishly. Others, equally as foolish, claim that these words have been altered or made up. The reality is that Jesus was using a common rhetorical technique of the time and place, specifically, argument a fortiari, where one creates a rhetorical contrast in order to outline a point.

    God is the good in this statement, by comparison to God, we are evil. This is a very old technique that goes back to the Prophets:

    "But we are all like an unclean thing,
    And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;
    We all fade as a leaf,
    And our iniquities, like the wind,
    Have taken us away." (Isaiah 64:6)

    So, yes, none of us are good. None of us measure up. But this is not the all-or-nothing sort of "good" vs. "evil" that has pervaded Western thought for so very long. Yes, there is a type of inferior "good" that some humans can claim to practice, but it is "like filthy rags" when one compares it to God. So he is right in that it is a lie for us to walk around thinking ourselves "good" when compared to God. But he is also wrong to then apply a human standard of "good" at the same time.

    Regarding the second lie, actually, "Salvation of All" is a very old heresy, the idea that nobody will be damned, no matter what, has been around for quite a long time. Scripture is replete with examples to the contrary. God may be loving, but He is also just. In addition, part of His love is that He grants us freedom. If we truly do not want Him, He will not intrude. My own Church teaches that damnation is not some cartoonish fiery place but it is a matter of perception. Those who have accepted God will feel His constant visible presence after the End of Days as warmth (metaphorically speaking), while those who have ultimately rejected Him will feel it as "searing flame" (metaphorically speaking) or "intolerable darkness" or "emptiness". Thus, this "punishment" could be seen as God's loving accession to our ultimate desire to be without His presence. An unfortunate side effect of this would be misery.

    Finally, regarding the quotation of the Psalm:

    "I said, 'You are gods,
    And all of you are children of the Most High.
    But you shall die like men,
    And fall like one of the princes.'"

    It was a condemnation of those who did not live up to their divine calling.
     
  13. JohnnyFlotsam

    JohnnyFlotsam Premium Member

    485
    62
    28
    I disagree, and I offer as proof my atheist friends, who are among the most "moral" people I know. They do the right thing simply because it's the right thing, not because they're following some arbitrary "thou shalt" and "thou shalt not" list. And certainly not out of fear of some gruesome fiery punishment.

    Tell me, which person is more "moral", the one who acts out of fear of punishment or the one who proactively chooses to do the right thing?
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2013
  14. BryanMaloney

    BryanMaloney Premium Member

    1,246
    234
    63
    I have found that the fear = morality camp teaches people just to not get caught. However, fear = morality is not the same thing as defined boundaries. One can have defined boundaries and still not adhere to the idea that fear of divine punishment is the only source of morality.
     
  15. brotherastere

    brotherastere Registered User

    1
    0
    0
    Speaking as a Christian Minister actually based off scripture he is right... It might make us uncomfortable but from a Biblical standpoint he is right... But (and this is the key part) what he is talking about is whether or not one can be good enough to earn heaven and as per Biblical teaching the answer is no


    My Freemasonry HD
     
  16. james.hawley

    james.hawley Registered User

    3
    0
    1
    The Holy Bible has many dimensions for interpretation. Therein lies the importance of rightly dividing the word. Man is indulgent by nature. The Bible, Masonic teachings, and life experience solidify this in fact. It is why we strive to learn and teach restraint of passion. That we may live in proper moderation. Living outside of appropriate boundaries is destructive and thus bad. However, the Bible said Job was a perfect man. Not without sin but in a state of self actualization) so we foster the love of our Deity, and live the virtues and principals and continue to improve:)


    My Freemasonry HD
     
  17. bama275

    bama275 Registered User

    8
    0
    1
    Therein lies the crux of my argument. You have placed the word moral in quotation marks. That is the very definition of the moral relativism of which I am speaking. I would assert that both are moral, regardless of the whether the motivation is extrinsic or intrinsic. If your atheist friends are moral, that is wonderful; however, that does not put them right with a God in which they do not believe. From a Christian perspective, which is the specific religion to which this thread was posed, they are doomed regardless of their morality or disbelief.

    Even so, there is actually no motivation for someone who does not believe in a higher power to act morally or keep anything in bounds. If the end result is ultimately nothing, then the impetus becomes to live for the moment. If a person is doing good and acting upright, they are motivated by something, whether it be fear or some desire. When whittled down to basic primal existence, man is a very dark and dangerous creation. The transcendentalists were fools because the belief that all men are basically good was at the heart of their assertions. I am not OK, you are not OK. We are constantly fighting desires and sins, seeking to subdue passions, and ultimately smooth out the edges to be better men.

    Fear is a legitimate and rightful part of most religions-

    Proverbs 9:10 "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding."

    Psalms 111:10 "
    The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever."
     
  18. BryanMaloney

    BryanMaloney Premium Member

    1,246
    234
    63
    Irrelevant to whether or not they are circumscribed within due bounds. Moral conduct is not the same thing as salvation. You have claimed that belief in God is necessary for moral conduct. Now you move the goalposts.

    Therefore, those who believe in a higher power automatically have moral conduct? After all, won't it cut both ways. Likewise, this claim is flat-out false. If morality is merely due to fear of external "punishment", it is not morality at all, it is merely animal reflex. If it is due to desire for gain, it is also animal reflex. Moral behavior is when one acts in a moral fashion with no thought of gain or "motivation" beyond the desire to do good. Very few people do this, and most of these not all the time.



    Fear is the BEGINNING, but there are those who make it the beginning, middle, and end. All they do is harp on what we have to fear with nothing beyond it. It is not enough to merely "begin" something. An unfinished building is not a building.
     
  19. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

    2,120
    2,103
    133
    The translation that I go by on Proverbs 9:10 states: The REVERENCE of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom...

    That speaks to me far better than any that use the word "fear". In matters of spirit, Piety trumps fear for me.

    I also like this one:

    Luke 17:20-21[SUP] [/SUP]And when the Pharisees had demanded of Him when the Kingdom of God should come, He answered them and said, “The Kingdom of God cometh not with outward show. Neither shall they say, ‘Lo, it is here!’ or ‘Lo, it is there!’ For behold, the Kingdom of God is within you.â€

    Kinda makes the point mute for those who argue we are going anywhere else, if we ain't "good enough" to go and the punishments thrown forth. It's within, and, according to Him, we are good enough to carry It! That doesn't sound like punishment to me.
     
  20. JohnnyFlotsam

    JohnnyFlotsam Premium Member

    485
    62
    28
    The problem with "defined boundaries" is that, almost universally, they include some arbitrary proscriptions and/or requirements. For example, I don't need any religious authority's pronouncement to know that murder is wrong, but whether or not I should eat shellfish is not exactly a moral issue. Nevertheless, there it is. In other words, we are capable of sorting this out on our own.
     

Share My Freemasonry