Two Scariest Lies in Our World Right Now

[JohnnyFlotsam]

Therein lies the crux of my argument. You have placed the word moral in quotation marks. That is the very definition of the moral relativism of which I am speaking.
I would assert that both are moral, regardless of the whether the motivation is extrinsic or intrinsic. If your atheist friends are moral, that is wonderful; however, that does not put them right with a God in which they do not believe. From a Christian perspective, which is the specific religion to which this thread was posed, they are doomed regardless of their morality or disbelief.

True enough, but that does not make their morality relativistic, from any perspective other than that of a dogmatic evangelical Christian. My atheist friends are at least as rigorous as any of my religious friends, and far more so than most, when it comes to setting, and living by, their moral guidelines. Freemasonry is quite clear on the notion that right and wrong transcend sectarian dogma, even if it finds fault (quite correctly, IMO) with the failure to believe in a "higher power".

Even so, there is actually no motivation for someone who does not believe in a higher power to act morally or keep anything in bounds.

Again, true enough, but that is not the same thing as saying that, absent fear or some other motivation, we can't act morally. Demonstrably, many do just that.

If the end result is ultimately nothing, then the impetus becomes to live for the moment. If a person is doing good and acting upright, they are motivated by something, whether it be fear or some desire. When whittled down to basic primal existence, man is a very dark and dangerous creation.

Some are, to be sure, but I reject, out of hand, the notion that we are all "born sinful". More to the point, I reject the notion that anyone who has been "motivated" by fear is truly "moral", no matter how upright his walk or what magic words he has uttered.

 

[BryanMaloney]

The problem with "defined boundaries" is that, almost universally, they include some arbitrary proscriptions and/or requirements. For example, I don't need any religious authority's pronouncement to know that murder is wrong, but whether or not I should eat shellfish is not exactly a moral issue. Nevertheless, there it is. In other words, we are capable of sorting this out on our own.

That you need no religious proscription to know that something is wrong does not mean that it is not wrong, that there is no defined boundary against it. Religions are not the only means whereby boundaries can be defined.

 

[JohnnyFlotsam]

That you need no religious proscription to know that something is wrong does not mean that it is not wrong, that there is no defined boundary against it. Religions are not the only means whereby boundaries can be defined.

Exactly my point. We are, collectively, entirely capable of sorting this out on our own. We need have only the will to do so and the strength of character to live within those bounds.

 

[BryanMaloney]

Exactly my point. We are, collectively, entirely capable of sorting this out on our own. We need have only the will to do so and the strength of character to live within those bounds.

One of the most dangerous errors that a Christian can make is to consider Christianity a moral system or even necessary for moral behavior. Such thought gets Christian belief backwards. Morality is not an end goal or prerequisite for Christianity, morality is merely an inescapable consequence of the complete transformation that one is supposed to undergo as a Christian. However, most "Christians" are every bit as worldly as those they claim to oppose. So they put everything in worldly terms, in terms of morality, or even worse, of prosperity and morality.

If I am obeying my Lord, I simply act in a moral fashion as naturally as I breathe. This, by the way, includes perfect humility and perfect compassion.

 

[brother josh]

Extremist who has no reason about him sry to say Christ came with love and compassion by this guy ( preacher) saying YOU are a sinner he is acting as GOD and judging you as THE GAOTU would do I say incorrect sir but I'm open as allways for discussing that we might find level ground if any one disagrees


My Freemasonry HD

 

[rebis]

Matthew 7:1-29
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. ...




My Freemasonry HD

 

[brother josh]

And my comment was aimed at the guy in the video I just read the comment above mine I agree with you my brother but the guy in the video I surly do not it sad to see how mankind has used those holy words as tyranny over the minds of men

May the blind footsteps of our past serve as a guide for our future


My Freemasonry HD

 

[rebis]

And my comment was aimed at the guy in the video I just read the comment above mine I agree with you my brother but the guy in the video I surly do not it sad to see how mankind has used those holy words as tyranny over the minds of men

May the blind footsteps of our past serve as a guide for our future


My Freemasonry HD

Tired of these terrorist tactics...adopt my doctrine or else...
The main reason so many people are leaving the church is because of people like the guy in the video




My Freemasonry HD

 

[rebis]

Tired of these terrorist tactics...adopt my doctrine or else...
The main reason so many people are leaving the church is because of people like the guy in the video




My Freemasonry HD

On the bright side, people who have higher philosophical aspirations and are not satisfied with the answers guys like that one provide,
tend to petition our lodges for membership.


My Freemasonry HD

 

[BryanMaloney]

Extremist who has no reason about him sry to say Christ came with love and compassion by this guy ( preacher) saying YOU are a sinner he is acting as GOD

"Sin" does not mean "moral crime", it means "missing the mark" (which is what both the Greek "hamartia" and Hebrew "chesaph" actually mean), and the mark is perfection, absolute perfection, even as God is perfect. The idea of "sin" meaning "moral crime" is an extremely common Western heresy, but it is possible to fall short of absolute and utter perfection on a purely accidental basis. One is not "condemned" by God because of this on a legalistic/moralistic basis. That's another all-too-common Western heresy. The "judgment" is a "sifting" or "sorting", not a legalistic "judgment".

 

[brother josh]

"Sin" does not mean "moral crime", it means "missing the mark" (which is what both the Greek "hamartia" and Hebrew "chesaph" actually mean), and the mark is perfection, absolute perfection, even as God is perfect. The idea of "sin" meaning "moral crime" is an extremely common Western heresy, but it is possible to fall short of absolute and utter perfection on a purely accidental basis. One is not "condemned" by God because of this on a legalistic/moralistic basis. That's another all-too-common Western heresy. The "judgment" is a "sifting" or "sorting", not a legalistic "judgment".

So no matter what we all fall short of that mark but with the aid of that divine providence we can do our best to straighten this rough Ashlar out again I see reason is what should guide mankind


My Freemasonry HD

 

[JohnnyFlotsam]

Tired of these terrorist tactics...adopt my doctrine or else...
The main reason so many people are leaving the church is because of people like the guy in the video

I am not offering any apologies for evangelical Christians like this guy, but let us temper our judgement of his "tactics" just a bit. "Scare" tactics they may be, from some points of view, but from his point of view, he's providing some pretty important information, letting us know what he believes will happen to us if we don't <insert ritual of salvation here>. That's not an "or else" threat, because he's not stating that he will be the one taking action. In other words, as long as he's not in-your-face annoying about it, his preaching his Gospel is fine with me. I don't have to attend his church or watch his youtube rants if I don't want to.
Besides, at least he's not attending military funerals, carrying picket signs telling us all about what "God Hates..."

 

[BroBook]

Bro Blake you did again good stuff: who is this everybody that tells us we are good and God will not punish? Hell
Is a real place " our God is a raging fire"
Anyone who does not convince H.I.M.
That they understand that there is a difference between right and wrong will
In up in the fire. The scriptures he quotes are not God talking but Paul and it is written "paraphrase" Paul says things that are hard to understand and there those that are twisting his words to his own destruction . In closing right is right regardless of the motivation and I love y'all good talk!!! As it was in the beginning so shall ......SMIB

 

[Bro Darren]

So many things that I can say, but ill sum it up by this - Some faiths/doctrines teach with Fear and some teach with Grace.

 

[BroBook]

Yes, use your tools !!!

 

[towerbuilder7]

Prudence, Temperance, Fortitude, and Justice-----four virtues I have embraced since I began my Masonic Walk........I am a believer in GOD, who was raised in a Catholic Church, and now attends Baptist Church for weekly praise and worship. I am, however, a very curious and inquisitive Man who has a deep appreciation of the principles of Orthodox Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism........I have no shame discussing religion, because I'm not a die hard embracer of religious dogma.......I am also one who has grown through personal study to NOT fall prey to FEAR to guide my walk.......I am much like the Good Coach above----piety definitely trumps fear for me any day. This forces the Brother Mason to "circumscribe HIMSELF within due bounds", and "subdue HIS passions while improving HIMSELF in MASONRY......".

I am a believer in GOD's WORD, but also a Man who accepts PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY in APPLICATION OF GOD's WORD and MY MASONIC TEACHINGS TO MY DAILY WALK IN LIFE..........Just my .02.........Bro. Jones

 

[K3vin]

The teaching in the video is not about morality. It is speaking to redemption according to the beliefs of his religion.

Atheists don't believe in doing good things to get a better position in the afterlife, they don't believe in an afterlife.

Once our individual salvation is rectified with our Creator (within whatever requirements of individual religions) our morality is a direct reflection on our character, and keeps our actions in line with the GAOTU, making us better men.

Morality is not the path to salvation, but the fruit of it.

 

[JohnnyFlotsam]

The teaching in the video is not about morality. It is speaking to redemption according to the beliefs of his religion.

Atheists don't believe in doing good things to get a better position in the afterlife, they don't believe in an afterlife.

True enough, but a great many of them also believe that "morality" transcends religious dogma and that "the right thing" is worth doing simply because it's the right thing. The most moral people I know (if such a judgement can actually be made) are atheists, but I hazard to make such a judgement because they are bound not by the promise of some later reward nor are they coerced by some the threat of some horrible eternal torture. They are motivated solely by their desire to do that "right thing".

Once our individual salvation is rectified with our Creator (within whatever requirements of individual religions) our morality is a direct reflection on our character, and keeps our actions in line with the GAOTU, making us better men.

Well, no. Morality is what it is. Again, "the right thing" is always the right thing regardless of the rationale used to reach it. If your rationale and my rationale each arrives at a different conclusion when considering the same moral question, one of us is wrong. Always.
Mind, I do not want to get into the morass that is the "greatest good" debate, so let's keep it simple. If they only thing that differentiates your rationale from mine is the fact that one of them includes a phrase like, "...because it says in The Book...", the difference is not one of morality nearly so much as it is one of dogma. And that is a distinction that every Mason should strive to make, always. Neither of us need care that the other's moral code is different from our own, only that each of us keeps true to the "rule and guide" of our own chosen VoSL. It is not my charge, and it certainly is not my "right" to make you walk my path, but as Mason I am called to help you walk yours where I can.

 

[jwhoff]

<cough cough> His (this poor misguiding soul in the video) is a black and white extremist view based upon many false assumptions and extreme ones at that. Case in point: He claims that by falling short (sin), one is bad. What a crock! People fall short all the time. This does not mean that they are bad. It only means they have room for improvement.

This guy is a religious terrorist. He is part of the group of extreme people Good and Proper Masonic Education protects us from - and I am not referring to the rudimentary Proficiencies that are merely intended to install Knowledge of Ritual into our heads and hearts.

If you did the Trivial FC Work, you recognize his flawed Grammar, Logic and Rhetoric. What's more, if you did your emotional management Work (EA), you recognize the emotional blackmail he is employing to convince you to think his way.

BTW - Why should we not have natural consequences for falling short. When those consequences are provided by a world created by a loving Father-Creator, we would learn so that we could do better.

This Fraternity loses far too many Brothers to this type of insanity because we don't require them do the EA and FC Work before they are formally Raised. The sad part of this is that there are Master Masons who believe this guy's terroristic ploys because they haven't done the Work before they were given the title of Master and don't know any better.

Gotta side with Doc on this one.

A religious terrorist, yes.

And, as Doc stresses in every means of masonic publication, and I do in my local lodges ... we are shielded from such assault by the work laid out for us in the Entered Apprentice and Fellowcraft degrees.

Logic and good reasoning skills. Hone your inate skills set and caution that others do the same on their walk to the Master's degree. Skip nothing. The world depends upon us to provide enlightenment and hope.

I grew up never far from these masonic principles. Masons were all around me all the way.

Let's make positively sure that others have the same opportunity.

May the GAOTU bless and keep us all.