UGLE

[JM-MWPHGLGA]

Out of curiosity, Who chartered the Grand Lodge Of England? If a thread of this sort have been discuss feel free to point me to that thread.

 

[coachn]

The warring Grand Lodged of the Antients and Moderns invented it through a merger.

 

[JM-MWPHGLGA]

As I was doing research it states the first Englishman to become a SPECULATIVE mason was Elias Ashmole in the 1600's. But that was before the UGLE which was in 1717. It then goes on to mention that Four Lodges created UGLE, unfortunately nobody know about these four lodges names.


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[Glen Cook]

They were named after the ale houses where the met.

 

[JM-MWPHGLGA]

Just the response I needed, but what I'm ultimately getting to is because they refused to name these lodges so we can trace their so called heritage. It comes to the question. Was UGLE every really chartered? Then we have to ask who was the original lodge or lodges to put a charter into play. Which will dismiss the irregular factor? Just random questions and pondering thoughts my Brothers.


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[Glen Cook]

Just the response I needed, but what I'm ultimately getting to is because they refused to name these lodges so we can trace their so called heritage. It comes to the question. Was UGLE every really chartered? Then we have to ask who was the original lodge or lodges to put a charter into play. Which will dismiss the irregular factor? Just random questions and pondering thoughts my Brothers.


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GLs aren't necessarily chartered. They may be formed by three or more regular lodges.

 

[JM-MWPHGLGA]

Can we find those names to any lodge that supposedly came together to form UGLE?


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[Glen Cook]

Are you looking for the provenance of those lodges? You aren't going to find it (though three still exist). See http://initiatorysubculture.blogspot.com/2012/09/and-under-what-authority-were-those.html

 

[JM-MWPHGLGA]

I understand your concept about those lodges. A great article by the way, it still lack the most important feature. Evidence. They use the phrase "time immemorial" and in some cases telling us just to have "faith" that these three lodges are connected to another grand lodge or they don't need a warrant or charter because their so ancient. Very interesting debate. Thank you for leading me to that article.


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[Glen Cook]

Actually, they may not have had a charter/warrant, or it may have been from another lodge. Let's say they weren't chartered. So?

 

[Bloke]

I understand your concept about those lodges. A great article by the way, it still lack the most important feature. Evidence. They use the phrase "time immemorial" and in some cases telling us just to have "faith" that these three lodges are connected to another grand lodge or they don't need a warrant or charter because their so ancient. Very interesting debate. Thank you for leading me to that article.

Thanks Glenn, that's interesting, esp "The first warrants were issued in 1731 by the Grand Lodge of Ireland (1 February 1731 for Mitchelstown, Co. Cork. That was a feature of the noted revival of Irish freemasonry under the Grand Mastership of Originally in England there operated an ad hoc arrangement of issuing letters of ‘Deputation’. "

It's clear "warrants" were a "modern thing", and Grand Lodge of London and Westminster which became Premier GL England then UGLE did not just start issuing them .... indeed even here in Australia in the 1850's, under the tyranny of distance you had unwarranted lodges of regular Freemasons being naughty and making Freemasons...

On a wider "fraternal' note, it was interesting the Buffaloes issued "dispensations" - our equivalent of a warrant.

 

[Brother JC]

Who Initiated the first Apprentice?

 

[JM-MWPHGLGA]

So, the mind frame of irregular and regular concept has to be destroyed to say the least. (Even though that's not going to happen) I have only been a Master Mason for a couple of months if not that. I love the craft at a early age, but I see many downsides that breaks up a UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD. This is cause number one. It could be broken if we all meet on the level, and act upright.


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[JM-MWPHGLGA]

Thanks Glenn, that's interesting, esp "The first warrants were issued in 1731 by the Grand Lodge of Ireland (1 February 1731 for Mitchelstown, Co. Cork. That was a feature of the noted revival of Irish freemasonry under the Grand Mastership of Originally in England there operated an ad hoc arrangement of issuing letters of ‘Deputation’. "

It's clear "warrants" were a "modern thing", and Grand Lodge of London and Westminster which became Premier GL England then UGLE did not just start issuing them .... indeed even here in Australia in the 1850's, under the tyranny of distance you had unwarranted lodges of regular Freemasons being naughty and making Freemasons...

On a wider "fraternal' note, it was interesting the Buffaloes issued "dispensations" - our equivalent of a warrant.

Correct, and if that's the case who are UGLE to say who is recognize or not when it's evident they really don't know either. This goes for every other Masonic organization that links with another body.


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[coachn]

Just the response I needed, but what I'm ultimately getting to is because they refused to name these lodges so we can trace their so called heritage. It comes to the question. Was UGLE every really chartered? Then we have to ask who was the original lodge or lodges to put a charter into play. Which will dismiss the irregular factor? Just random questions and pondering thoughts my Brothers.

1) UGLE was created by the two warring GLs - Antients and Moderns - in the early 19th century; not 1717.
2) The four lodges were referenced by the ale-house, tavern, etc. they met in.
3) Regularity is an innovation, from what I understand.

 

[Bloke]

Correct, and if that's the case who are UGLE to say who is recognize or not when it's evident they really don't know either. This goes for every other Masonic organization that links with another body.

As Coach says, "UGLE was created by the two warring GLs - Antients and Moderns" when those differences were settled and they created a new standard of recognition which many regular GLs use, even the ones in the States. That said, every GL, "regular" or "irregular" are sovereign entities - recognition only matters when you want to visit outside your own jurisdiction..

 

[Bloke]

So, the mind frame of irregular and regular concept has to be destroyed to say the least...I have only been a Master Mason for a couple of months if not that. I love the craft at a early age, but I see many downsides that breaks up a UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD. This is cause number one. It could be broken if we all meet on the level, and act upright.

I think the idea of "regular" and "irregular" is legitimate.. if there was no concept of regularity, we might, for instance have 12 year old Freemasons or Freemasons who are convicted murderers.

 

[Glen Cook]

Correct, and if that's the case who are UGLE to say who is recognize or not when it's evident they really don't know either. This goes for every other Masonic organization that links with another body.


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1. You are applying today's Masonic jurisprudence to acts of three hundred years ago. Just like the civil law, Masonic law evolves. The principles of recognition were first pronounced some two hundred years after the founding of the Premier GL.

2. UGLE is not the arbiter of regularity. Indeed, CGMNA and UGLE GLs do not have an identical recognition list.

 

[JM-MWPHGLGA]

All great answers. Nothing like good education concerning Masonic talk. There has to be a beginning , I just can't connect the dots of what was the real origin? Who warrant those warring Grand lodges? I hope I'm not sounding to far fetch. But eventually we have to start from some where.


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[Glen Cook]

All great answers. Nothing like good education concerning Masonic talk. There has to be a beginning , I just can't connect the dots of what was the real origin? Who warrant those warring Grand lodges? I hope I'm not sounding to far fetch. But eventually we have to start from some where.


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No one warranted those grand lodges. Grand lodges don't have to be chartered or warranted. They may be formed by three or more regular lodges.

We don't know the real origin of speculative Freemasonry. We can point to Elias Ashmole's admission; we have the 16th C records from Scotland.

Recommend you read Freemasons for Dummies (that is not a reflection on you) and take the Master Craftsman Course through AASR-SJ.