Bloke
Premium Member
Here Rip... it's linked off this url and is short. It is an excellent article and really clarified my thinking on regularity and the Sovereignty of GLS..
http://internet.lodge.org.uk/81-library/shortpapers
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"What you permit, you promote"
- Thread starter Bloke
- Start date
Here Rip... it's linked off this url and is short. It is an excellent article and really clarified my thinking on regularity and the Sovereignty of GLS..
http://internet.lodge.org.uk/81-library/shortpapers
Yes. Indeed it is.
Heck no. But it certainly helps when your inner man is moral.LOL... Short and sweet.
So are all are moral duties purely concerned with the inner man Coach?
( and I can see your next response.... a single "no".....)
If, what your permit, you promote then God permits evil, God promotes evil. It also means the activities of others requires my permission. Or on a more personal level: God permitted my grandfather to die from cancer, God promotes my grandfathers death from cancer. So God killed by grandfather with cancer. God killed my grandfather.
God permits X, God promotes X. This is a very harsh and short sighted view to hold.
God permits X, God promotes X. This is a very harsh and short sighted view to hold.
tldubb
Premium Member
Bloke
Premium Member
I actually used to interact with Bro Karen quite a bit on another forum, she taught me a lot. Read her article. I'm a very strong advocate of our fraternity staying a fraternity, but I'm also a strong advocate of respecting others traditions, esp long established organisations like the Honourable Fraternity of Woman Freemasons and Le Driot. Karen is a Co-Freemason. We can't talk ritual, but can talk history and symbolism, but she clarified my position on "regularity" and led me to the realisation most Freemasons view their GL as legitimate regardless of if mine will extend amity...
tldubb
Premium Member
I just read the article my take is, looking at her point of view she has every right to call herself a "regular" mason as far as her jurisdiction.
In my jurisdiction I would not be able to sit in lodge or have any type of Masonic intercourse with her. Violation of 18th landmark and my OB of a MM.
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In my jurisdiction I would not be able to sit in lodge or have any type of Masonic intercourse with her. Violation of 18th landmark and my OB of a MM.
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Bloke
Premium Member
100% agree.
Ripcord22A
Site Benefactor
I agree and disagree. While we can't tell other people they are clandestine we also don't call brothers/lodges within our jurisdictions clandestine...we tell brothers/lodges within our jurisdictions who, outside, our jurisdictions are/nt clandestine.
Where the split is, is that if i wanted to ignore my obligation, i could go to their meetings and they would let me in, but not vice versa.
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Where the split is, is that if i wanted to ignore my obligation, i could go to their meetings and they would let me in, but not vice versa.
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Nope. GL(insert state here) Masons are not allowed in their meetings. In fact, while they are renting the facility we aren't even allowed past the front office.
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It's simple. You must continuously own your division for it to be universally valid.
We can tell other practicing Freemasons that they are clandestine or irregular to us, regardless of whether they are within or without. That is all that matters in the eyes of our respective GLs. But to label them irregular or clandestine without "to us" is to be disrespectful. Irregularity and Clandestine are terms that apply only to the GL that is using the terms.
When it is not owned, you start having members talking through their butts and it is most embarrassing to observe.
tldubb
Premium Member
Yes, it seems like the word clandestine more than often misused. Where the word recognition, recognized should be used instead of clandestine. As Regularity is determined by each of our own Masonic Jurisdictions. At our next district council meeting, I'll ask our GM or his representatives what is their definition of a clandestine mason or made mason as the Grand Lodge defines it.
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In my own lexicon "clandestine" would be a lodge that springs out of nowhere, charges exorbitant fees for profit, and disappears just as quickly.
Just as UGLE has informal cordial and cooperative relations with the Order of Women Freemasons, we can exist in the same reality as the Honoursble Order of American Co-Masonry.
As far as conversation, the Seven Liberal Arts and Sciences are safe, common ground. Play billiards, get Quadrivial.
Just as UGLE has informal cordial and cooperative relations with the Order of Women Freemasons, we can exist in the same reality as the Honoursble Order of American Co-Masonry.
As far as conversation, the Seven Liberal Arts and Sciences are safe, common ground. Play billiards, get Quadrivial.
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Bloke
Premium Member
Do American Freemasons use the word "amity" ? I know your GLs do, but I rarely see it in a post.... We often just use the word "Amity" meaning recognised and mutual visitation and "not in Amity" meaning we can't visit.
We just don't have the same level of irregular and clandestine Masonry that you do in America.... here it's generally regarded as a curio rather than "threat" which seems the posture of many Masons in the States... which I guess I can understand in that they bring a bad name to our regular organisations when in fact they are nothing to do with it.
Yes
tldubb
Premium Member
I don't consider them a threat. I know brothers that by my GL would call "clandestine". I personally recognize them as my brothers. But I know that not all would agree on that, but who am I to say what's right or wrong, just following my heart.
I know as a Prince Hall mason, there is strong dislike of "clandestine masonry" especially in the AA/Black community. Mostly coming from our PHA GL's. Which there is a history as far as former Prince Hall masons, for political reasons and or egotistical reasons that have started there own Masonic orders.
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I know as a Prince Hall mason, there is strong dislike of "clandestine masonry" especially in the AA/Black community. Mostly coming from our PHA GL's. Which there is a history as far as former Prince Hall masons, for political reasons and or egotistical reasons that have started there own Masonic orders.
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I generally use the terms "recognize" and "fraternal relations".
Here is where confusion can come into play. Regular means they meet certain shared beliefs and practices. Irregular means they do not meet certain shared beliefs and practices. Clandestine can mean, we don't recognize.
So you can have clandestine masons made regularly, regular mason made irregularly, clandestine masons made irregularly, etc.
In Alabama both Mainstream and PHA grand lodges are regular. However, they both view each other as clandestine. Were as some co-masonic bodies are clandestine but can do things regularly in practice. Or Grand Orient of France who is both clandestine and irregular. This is why in most conversations I use the two terms I started off with. It's simpler in my mind.
Here is where confusion can come into play. Regular means they meet certain shared beliefs and practices. Irregular means they do not meet certain shared beliefs and practices. Clandestine can mean, we don't recognize.
So you can have clandestine masons made regularly, regular mason made irregularly, clandestine masons made irregularly, etc.
In Alabama both Mainstream and PHA grand lodges are regular. However, they both view each other as clandestine. Were as some co-masonic bodies are clandestine but can do things regularly in practice. Or Grand Orient of France who is both clandestine and irregular. This is why in most conversations I use the two terms I started off with. It's simpler in my mind.
jermy Bell
Registered User
I'm just as lost as you, and will leave this thread more confused.
It's less confusing when you realize the word "Brother" is used as a title, not a gender designator associated with siblings.
However, if you can't get past the latter, the former will never be understood much less accepted.
I believe that to be true in a sense that all of mankind (not in gender) is a brotherhood, but as far as the membership requirements of our fraternity RIGHT NOW, that isn't the case. If all GLs changed this tomorrow, this would be different.
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