Where does belief come from?

Discussion in 'Philosophy, Religion and Spirituality' started by pointwithinacircle2, Dec 15, 2017.

  1. pointwithinacircle2

    pointwithinacircle2 Rapscallion Premium Member

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    Oh my goodness Coach, I fear we are at the point where truth becomes buried in a avalanche of words.
    A better man than me called it the "I Am". I do not believe that I can add to this definition. :)
     
  2. JamestheJust

    JamestheJust Registered User

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    Define means to mark the finish of something. Does "will" have a finish or end? Perhaps "will" is both the beginning and end of all. How then will a human encompass the "will" within which it exists?

    Perhaps life is better experienced than defined.
     
  3. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

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    How does "desire/want" fit in?
     
  4. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

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    Not really...
    DEFINE (verb): state or describe exactly the nature, scope, or meaning of. (synonyms: explain, expound, interpret, elucidate, describe, clarify...)
    - give the meaning of, put into words; give the meaning of (a word or phrase), especially in a dictionary; make up or establish the character of
    Yes. However, it may never be expressed, much less reached.
    Nah. Just the motivation.
    By understanding that will exists within humanity.
    <cough>An unexamined life...
     
  5. pointwithinacircle2

    pointwithinacircle2 Rapscallion Premium Member

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    Romans 7:15-20 seems appropriate here. Not for it's religious significance but for it's insight into the Psyche.
    Romans 7:15 says: "For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate."

    Are you inquiring about wanting to do the right thing? Or are you inquiring about the thing that that actually gets done? Which one would you say is the thing that you "desire"? If I say I want one thing and do another - where does my desire actually lie?

    It seems to me that one goal of spiritual development must be to purge the urge to do the wrong thing, and strengthen the urge to do the right thing. In conclusion, I would say that desire is a tool that one must learn to use correctly. It seems to me that the Will is the personification of the part of me that is learning to use the tool.
     
  6. pointwithinacircle2

    pointwithinacircle2 Rapscallion Premium Member

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  7. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

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    No. I merely wanted to know how you are viewing what "will" is for you.
    No.

    Your desire is expressed by what you do, regardless of what you claim you want.
    Or maybe the first step is to become more honest with what you truly want, whether you consider it good or bad.

    I see will as desire/want. Discipline is how we harness and direct will.
     
  8. hanzosbm

    hanzosbm Premium Member

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    This idea, for me, has been the key to the self improvement I seek. We all know the basic ideas of what is right and what is wrong, and most of us want to do the right thing, at least from an abstract point of view. But, when the 'right thing' is in conflict with some other desire is where it gets difficult. For me, this is where it became important to find for myself the 'why'. You can tell me all day what the right thing is, and I might even agree with you, but until I can find my own 'why', the motivation, possibly also termed 'desire', isn't there.

    Let's say that someone has been rude to you, perhaps even repeatedly. And some day, they come to you asking for help. We all know that the 'right' thing is to still help them, but we are also likely to be reluctant. We can justify it to ourselves in many different ways. Anything from it being payback in the form of divine retribution to simply saying that we don't have the time. And, just like any choice, we will need to weigh the pros against the cons. For me, I need something that convinces me that I should help rather than listen to all those other reasons internally why I don't want to.

    For me, it isn't until I find a reason to desire to do the right thing that a good deed goes from action to a behavior. Personally, I don't feel that doing the right thing out of a sense of guilt or obligation or fear is enough. I have to genuinely WANT to do it, and for me, the only way for that to happen is to find a reason why.
     
  9. Bloke

    Bloke Premium Member

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  10. Bloke

    Bloke Premium Member

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    Beliefs are not fact, they're just what we believe.

    Nothing more, nothing less.

    Nor is belief Faith. A belief should have some sort of rationale against it, even if faulted, while Faith is what we believe in the absence of the rational.

    Some beliefs can be prejudices, but perhaps a good question is; are all prejudices beliefs ? ... And might all beliefs act as prejudices ?

    For all these things those, what ever our beliefs and faiths - its probably safe to assume they are all relative to our limited understanding, even as the smartest human, and hence we could be wrong in some or all of them..
     
  11. Bloke

    Bloke Premium Member

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    "Your beliefs become your thoughts " ...we sure about that... do our thoughts become our beliefs, or more commonly, is it what we are told and accept, become our beliefs for most of us ?

    Perhaps our beliefs shape our thinking, but if our thinking is only limited by our beliefs, then they are limited, unless we belief everything should be questioned..

    Yep, that's where I am at - question everything :) because what we think about it is probably wrong...
     
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  12. hanzosbm

    hanzosbm Premium Member

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    These two ideas got me thinking, and have led me to disagree with Mr. Gandi's statement. As you said, some beliefs can be prejudices (or lead to prejudices, but that's a different discussion). But a prejudice can be challenged by thought, as can a belief. The statement that 'your beliefs become your thoughts' suggests that this is a linear progression, but we know that's not the case.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2018
  13. Bloke

    Bloke Premium Member

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    I agree - I'm not too sure about several lines of Gandhi's -especially the first couple, and I think "Your words become your actions," should read "Your words should become your actions" because if you say something, you should do it and always hold yourself to what you say. Not all do. I try to, but a simple enthusiastic statement at a public meeting which I realised was a promise certainly shaped a decade of my life and made it hard. That happened because my values did shape my destiny as I believe you should keep your promises.

    I think the thought pattern might be more circular - but hopefully not going around in circles... more walking the same road with different perception, experience and perhaps information, perhaps its spiral rather than linear or circular - but I'd take linear over circular any day...... but Gandhi might have said those words in Hindi and they loose something in translation...

    Somehow this thread made me think of this;

    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble.
    It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.

    Bro Mark Twain

    But I think, forget all that and simply try to answer the question
    "Where does belief come from?"

    I think belief, as distinct from Faith, should come from our thoughts.

    When we are a child, many do not think about what our parents tell us - but even then, we make the choice to believe it... so maybe belief comes from our thoughts and choices about a combination of thoughts, observations and external information, both good and bad..... but that excludes emotions from beliefs and I believe (LOL) emotions play a role, especially in something like prejudice... perhaps emotion is just a constituent ingredient in anything we do and hence is caught up in both our thoughts and choices, but I think it needs to be specifically acknowledged.

    So how about this

    Beliefs arise from conscious and subconscious decisions based on a combination of thoughts, observations, feelings and external information.

    Now, we could just look this up in a philosophy book, but that's no fun and won't teach us much so... now...over to Coach to rip that apart :D
     
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  14. Athena

    Athena Registered User

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    You take what you absorb with your empirical senses. Understanding comes from how others explain what you experienced through these senses. Belief is a manifestation of the two. It's all about prioritizing your beliefs and using the most beneficial belief which is determined on how it affects the self and others when thought of and spoken about. One cannot simply discard a belief because they don't want it anymore, it will always be a belief because it is what you believe is true and will remain with you. Priority my friend.
     
  15. JamestheJust

    JamestheJust Registered User

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    The same proposition arises in some of the allegedly alien conversations. On several occasions I have read that just about everything that Earth humans believe is wrong.
     
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  16. Bro Book

    Bro Book Registered User

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    A Will, can be a set of instructions, that are meant to be carried out after the death or apparent death of a being, it can also be what a being desires to do or have done. As for beliefs, what we believe has no effect on what is. What I mean is, if, everyone believed the same lie or for that matter disbelieved the same truth. It, is still what it is. Desires, seem to me, to go hand in hand with passions, and most of us are in agreement, that our passions needed to be subdued.

    Sent from my RCT6973W43 using My Freemasonry mobile app
     
  17. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

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    Darn Right! Unfortunately, integrity is assumed here and rightfully so. Without integrity, and for that part "authenticity", the entire premise falls apart.
    Agreed! His original words conveyed things in his language that English readers might never receive. However, when we review the spirit of what was said, even when translated into English, we can usually fill in the missing pieces fairly quickly.
    Faith is choosing to accept a premise as true and you support it regardless of any external support OR lack of support of the premise.
    Belief is accepting a premise as true because you chose to assume it is supported externally.
    We have faith. ;-)
    Emotions come from how we perceive what is before us or what we anticipate will be before us. Our beliefs shape our perceptions.

    How do paradigms of reality fit into all this?

    Would not touch it with a ten foot pole Bro.! :cool:
     
  18. Bloke

    Bloke Premium Member

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    I like it !

    More that paradigms - is it not more a question of intellectual capacity to evaluate beliefs ?
     
  19. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

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    Yeah, I thought you would...
    Please run with this.
     
  20. pointwithinacircle2

    pointwithinacircle2 Rapscallion Premium Member

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    One of my favorite quotes is "If the student is not ready the teacher literally does not exist". If a person has not prepared their Psyche (by Psyche I mean the emotional, intellectual, and spiritual self) they will not understand what you are saying. For me, the hardest part of Psyche-logical growth is accepting that those around me are often are unprepared to "become better"; and that often the better I become the more distance there is between me and them.
     
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