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why are Catholics "excommunicated"

jhale1158

Registered User
I read that Catholics, as deemed by te pope in 1730 something are to be excommunicated if they become Freemasons. Why is this?
 

chrmc

Registered User
I'd bet that back in 1730 the Catholic church was not super wild about Freemasonry, and probably threw us in with all the other devil worshipers and bad people running around back then.
If you look at bit at some of the anti masonic websites I'm sure you can find the decree from back then.
 

Plustax

Registered User
Sad thing is that it continues to happen today. I know of a "X" mason in S. Texas who had to go thru a 6 month "probationary" period before he was accepted back in to the catholic church. Still hard for me to understand the mentality and how the clergy still permits this to be continued. It's as bad as if some churches still believed in "witch burning"... and probably some still do during this day & age. I personally lose respect & find it disappointing that people whom are highly recognized by the public, to still condone this type of belief & behavior. I wonder if I'll ever see the Catholic church do away with this nonsense. I know it can be changed... afterall it was changed that meat could be eaten on Fridays when I was a kid & that came all the way from the top. Ha ha Then again as I think about all this it is much like some things in our own Fraternity. Some mentalities won't change due to "older or Senior" brethren in high places continuing to push or influence those "younger" brethren in the mindset of old beliefs because "that's the way it's always been". Yet we often hear "we need new & young blood in our fraternity". Maybe we should add to the end of that statement... "that believe in our old ways of thinking". JMHO
 

widows son

Premium Member
why are Catholics "excommunicated"

Great points. If I'm not mistaken, pope John Paul II revoked the excommunication ban for catholic masons.
 

otherstar

Registered User
The Revised Code of Canon Law (Church Law) published during the reign of John Paul II in 1983 was rather ambiguous about Masonic membership (and the Commentary made it seem like if Masonic organizations did not plot against the Church, Catholics could join).

In 1983, shortly after the publication of new Code of Canon Law, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF -- headed by then Cardinal Joesph Ratzinger,now Pope Benedict XVI) issued a document that stopped short of excommunication but did declare that Catholics who are Freemasons are in a state of "grave sin and my not receive communion." Here is that document. In 1985, and article appeared in the Vatican newspaper, L'Osservatore Romano that further clarified the stance of the CDF, and hence the Catholic Church, against Freemasonry. Here is that article In the article, there is a notable shift in teaching away from "plotting against the Church" to opposing Freemasonry on the grounds that it promotes religious relativism, naturalistic religion, etc.

That being said, the penalty for belonging to the Masonic Lodge for a Catholic is no different than for a Catholic who uses artificial birth control.

Plustax, I am not sure why your friend had to wait 6 months to get back into the Church. I've NEVER heard of that happening unless an annulment was involved and your friend had re-married before the annulment came through. I was raised Catholic, spent two years in a Benedictine monastery, and have studied Catholic theology extensively (I have a Master's degree in Philosophy from the Univ. of St. Thomas in Houston). I am currently an unaffiliated Mason, but am working on changing that (dimitted in 2004 for a variety of reasons, but being Catholic was not one of them).
 

widows son

Premium Member
why are Catholics "excommunicated"

Interesting. I didn't know that Benedict had made that change. I've read somewhere too that the whole excommunication thing started over the pope stating he should be the GM of the Masonic order. But I think that's more hearsay.
 

Plustax

Registered User
I honestly don't know why he had to wait either, but this happened this past year down in S. Texas. I had actually met the person (introduced by my brother years ago.. (whom by the way is a KofC with the Catholic church). When I met the individual we always identified each other with a friendly gesture and although we were not personal friends we always greeted each other as "brother" as many of us masons do. It was mid year last year that my brother informed me that this person had gone back to the Catholic church (in my ol' hometown .. I didn't ask how long ago), but before he was allowed back in the Catholic church he had to renounce himself from being a Mason and wait 6 months. Marriage as far as I know, had nothing at all to do with it. Just a couple of weeks ago my brother told me that the individual is now back in the Catholic church and is very active (which by the way, I'm glad that he's happy). It does puzzle me on how all this took place, but I don't see any use in trying to meet with the person and find out more specifics. It's not his fault, he's just complying so he can get back in the Catholic church. Again, it's "old rules, old laws, old beliefs", that keep certain things from moving forward. My own brother doesn't understand it either because he knows what I do as a Mason and a Shriner and finds it very admirable. I've even taken him to see my lodge so he could see for himself what is in there and how it's set up and explain to him as much as I can. He found it interesting, but I still sense something that he finds unsure. Probably because of what he's been told for many years by others. Funny, I was told the same things, but I continued to search for "more light" and became a Mason 27 yrs ago.... then Scottish Rite and then Shriners. I still respect the Catholic Church as I do other churches, but don't necessarily agree or follow in all their beliefs except for one thing.... GOD. To me, that's all that matters and all I care about.

Plustax, I am not sure why your friend had to wait 6 months to get back into the Church. I've NEVER heard of that happening unless an annulment was involved and your friend had re-married before the annulment came through. I was raised Catholic, spent two years in a Benedictine monastery, and have studied Catholic theology extensively (I have a Master's degree in Philosophy from the Univ. of St. Thomas in Houston). I am currently an unaffiliated Mason, but am working on changing that (dimitted in 2004 for a variety of reasons, but being Catholic was not one of them).[/QUOTE]
 

usmc05

Registered User
I understand some of y'all don't agree with the Catholic Church and their rules, but the great thing bout Freemasonry is we can worship in our own way. Plus in America we have freedom of religion. There is some of us who practice our Catholic faith along with Masonry in the open. I understand some not understanding the Catholic faith, but please don't say it should change when you don't even belong. Just my two cents.
 

otherstar

Registered User
I understand some of y'all don't agree with the Catholic Church and their rules, but the great thing bout Freemasonry is we can worship in our own way. Plus in America we have freedom of religion. There is some of us who practice our Catholic faith along with Masonry in the open. I understand some not understanding the Catholic faith, but please don't say it should change when you don't even belong. Just my two cents.

My sentiments exactly, to be quite honest. When asked about the teachings of the Church, I like to tell what the Church teaches and not my opinion. I've been a KofC for almost 25 years and a Mason for almost 15 (though not affiliated that whole time).
 

Mac

Moderator
Premium Member
Agreed. It's odd. I grew up Catholic but left the church soon after becoming an adult. I will not return, but I've been getting a significant amount of exposure to it while reading and listening to Catholic news organizations regarding the Pope's decision to step down. ;)
 

Plustax

Registered User
Hey otherstar, I see you mention that you are a KofC and a mason. If I may ask... is this allowed throughout all Catholics? Personally, I find it great that you are active in both, but just wonder if it's only allowed in your area. Again, I ask this because there were a couple of gents in my area that were interested in petitioning for our lodge, but all of a sudden stopped. I wondered if it was because they were KofC's (which both told us that they were). We haven't seen them again and leaves some (me, in particular) wondering. You see, this would be good if clergymen of the Catholic faith could answer some of these "modern day" questions. Whether people (masons and non masons) would agree with the explanations would be irrelevant to me. It would just clear up curiosities of our times in this day and age.. not of the times of "way back when". Personally I feel that there has been more progress (still more needed) in masonry between mainstream and PHA than there has been between Masonry and Catholics. Yet, we all believe in a Supreme Being, brotherly love, faith, hope & Charity.... just don't invite each other to our meetings or discuss our fraternity beliefs (whether we agree or not). It is what it is......
 

Mac

Moderator
Premium Member
I would not compare the rift between Mainstream and PHA Freemasonry to the difference between Freemasonry and Catholicism. The Church has a very clear stance on the issue, and it's not necessarily a matter of sitting down and repairing a rift, nor is it our place to declare that their stance, as religious doctrine, is wrong. At that point, we are criticizing a religion, which is exactly why we don't discuss religion in Lodge. :)

Are Freemasons good people? Mostly. Is every rule in the Catholic Church necessary? I would venture no, but that's why I left.

If nothing else, I would just advise brothers to stay respectful while having this kind of discussion.
 

otherstar

Registered User
Hey otherstar, I see you mention that you are a KofC and a mason. If I may ask... is this allowed throughout all Catholics? Personally, I find it great that you are active in both, but just wonder if it's only allowed in your area. Again, I ask this because there were a couple of gents in my area that were interested in petitioning for our lodge, but all of a sudden stopped. I wondered if it was because they were KofC's (which both told us that they were). We haven't seen them again and leaves some (me, in particular) wondering. You see, this would be good if clergymen of the Catholic faith could answer some of these "modern day" questions. Whether people (masons and non masons) would agree with the explanations would be irrelevant to me. It would just clear up curiosities of our times in this day and age.. not of the times of "way back when". Personally I feel that there has been more progress (still more needed) in masonry between mainstream and PHA than there has been between Masonry and Catholics. Yet, we all believe in a Supreme Being, brotherly love, faith, hope & Charity.... just don't invite each other to our meetings or discuss our fraternity beliefs (whether we agree or not). It is what it is......

Actually, I'm not currently affiliated with a lodge, but I did dimit in good standing so I am considered an "unaffiliated mason" (according to Texas Masonic Law). I am, however, investigating the lodge's near me and will likely re-affiliate in the near future. Joining this forum has made the decision to re-affiliate much easier :-D

I've never told any of my brother Knights about my masonic membership. Some would care, some would not. I'm not very attached to the Catholic Church (even less so since my very Catholic father died last October), nor would I call myself a very good Catholic because there are many teachings I have trouble with (but that is not for discussion here). I'm not sure that it's "allowed" per se, because the teaching of the Church is pretty clear on the issue, but I follow my own conscience. For the last few years, I've been little more than a dues paying member of my KofC council because I'm pretty busy with my 4 daughters (I show up for degree ceremonials, and that's about it....I personally find the Masonic Degrees to be much more enlightening).
 

jhale1158

Registered User
why are Catholics "excommunicated"

I was wondering because I like to know the history of things. A new brother who is also in my unit asked me about it, so I figured I would ask. I do not fully understand Catholicism and their views on Freemasonry, but now I have lots of information! I appreciate your feedback!
 

widows son

Premium Member
why are Catholics "excommunicated"

Essential nobody other than Christ can go through what we do in the third degree, according to the church, even though its allegorical. There is a much deeper issue here than what's seen on the surface.
 

BryanMaloney

Premium Member
Re: why are Catholics "excommunicated"

Essential nobody other than Christ can go through what we do in the third degree, according to the church, even though its allegorical. There is a much deeper issue here than what's seen on the surface.

Please cite the specific church documents that state this as the problem. Otherwise, you're merely perpetuating rumor and hearsay, hardly a moral act.
 

Bro_Vick

Moderator
Premium Member
Re: why are Catholics "excommunicated"

Essential nobody other than Christ can go through what we do in the third degree, according to the church, even though its allegorical. There is a much deeper issue here than what's seen on the surface.

Yeah, I don't buy this at all. How many plays and screen plays have the same theme, almost exact? It is man facing his mortality and the fact that death can come upon you at any time, and that bad things happen to good people. While in the York Rite lodges there is some amount of justice, in the Scottish Rite first three, not so much.

So yeah, any church member who says this (which I have never read or heard before). I commented on the other thread as to what are the two main criticisms from Mainstream churches (i.e. not snake handlers) criticisms of Freemasonry.

S&F,
-Bro Vick
 

otherstar

Registered User
Re: why are Catholics "excommunicated"

Please cite the specific church documents that state this as the problem. Otherwise, you're merely perpetuating rumor and hearsay, hardly a moral act.

I agree with you on this. There is NO Church document which states this. The most explicit official document that explains the Church's teaching against Masonry is the encyclical letter Humanum Genus written in 1884 by Pope Leo XIII. I don't have time to summarize it here, other than to say that it accuses Masonry of practicing naturalism (denial of supernatural reality), and popular sovereignty (the notion that our rights come from man, not God), and the total separation of Church and State.

Per the article I posted from the Vatican website earlier in this thread, the objections have shifted somewhat to include a false ecumenism (false in the eyes of the Church because it doesn't the the Roman Catholic Church as the true church) because Masonry allows all men of good will to meet together.
 
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