Why is the north a place of darkness?

Discussion in 'Philosophy, Religion and Spirituality' started by pointwithinacircle2, May 15, 2015.

  1. Elexir

    Elexir Registered User

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    That it the work.
    Can it be messured by us?
    No only the thrice great can.
     
  2. JamestheJust

    JamestheJust Registered User

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    I know at least 5 brethren that can use some of the "working tools" in a "moral" sense to measure who is true to what.

    Which is literal and which symbolic is very often a problem for the speculative Freemason.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2017
  3. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

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    You should work on that trivial stuff dude. It is not a science. It is theater and art. There is no "if".

    BTW - The statement "They were not actual or real men." is not a proposition AS IT APPLIES TO THE ALLEGORY presenting them as such. This is a FACT of allegory and the allegory. Allegory uses known characters from history and literature, but allegory itself is not presented as factual. Hence, the characters of the story, no matter HOW real their historical or literal references might be, are still not real or actual people, within the context of the allegory.

    Studying, learning and applying the Trivium eliminates such speculative nonsense and is a good indicator that people putting such nonsense forth are in a fantasy land.

    Of course, your mileage may vary.
     
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  4. JamestheJust

    JamestheJust Registered User

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    How do we know that it is allegory rather than an actual event reformulated for a Masonic context?
     
  5. Elexir

    Elexir Registered User

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    Good for them.

    The problem is that morality can not be messured objectivly as morals change with the times.
     
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  6. SimonM

    SimonM Registered User

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    I would say the first step would be to go back to earlier sources and see if the stories and text are actually there or if they are a more recent addtion.
    For example, we have ritual texts (at least fragments) from around 1740 in Swedish and French. From them we can study the development of the SweR and see what was added, parts that was moved around and what have been with us from the beginning.

    Alot of what you would think is old is more recent additions that have improved on the ritual. But since almost all masonic authors like to imply that they have ancient material they dress up their inventions so it looks like its from another era. Then, 250 years later it can be hard to see what was invented and what was not.
     
  7. JamestheJust

    JamestheJust Registered User

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    Hence my careful wording about who is true to what.
     
  8. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

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    That is the question to ask.

    When you have studied, learned and applied the Trivium, all the evidence is there to be known. It's not rocket science.

    When you realize Freemasonic "rituals" are fabricated script by multiple playwrights that have been adopted, adapted and adjusted for about 300 year old, the only history you become interested in as far as these scripts are concerned is who changed/added/adjusted/deleted what when and why.

    The "why" and "when" the most interesting of them all though since they pursue "reason" and "historical influence"; why did the playwright insert/change/remove what he did and what was going on at the time that influenced the change? There are several things sewn within Ritual that are influenced by the time they were added.

    However, there's a cross section of individuals who get caught up with, who get swept away and who promote fantasy in relation to Freemasonic Ritual and Lore. They are easily spotted due to their lack of Trivial training along with the nonsense put forth.

    (As an aside, Bro. Anderson borrowed and fabricated much of his materials from old manuscripts for entertainment purposes. The challenge is not taking all this too serious and just do the Work to which alludes.)
    Because surrounding literature, Freemasonic references-terms-allusions, common sense and simple sanity tells us that it is allegory, which by its very nature may use actual events and people, but is itself not actual events or people.

    Once again, when you do the Trivial Work, this doesn't have to be explained and questions and statements such as yours become seen for what they are. It is why Ritual points to Trivial Studies so that members come to realize what its plays are making effort to do: Transform the consciousness of members who do the Work so that they don't come across like idiots and fools to those who have actually done the Work and so that they can participate in truly productive discourse.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2017
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  9. Warrior1256

    Warrior1256 Site Benefactor

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    So we should be obsessed with the moral, not the literal since the literal does not exist.
     
  10. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

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    No. We should pursue what our hearts ask of us, but only after we have done the Apprentice Work to bring Order to Chaos of the heart so we don't pursue things that are nonsense, superfluous or harmful.

    You can tell by a man's pursuits the Work he has done and the Work he has yet to do.
     
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  11. Warrior1256

    Warrior1256 Site Benefactor

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    Good advice coachn, thanks. I'm here to learn.
     
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  12. JamestheJust

    JamestheJust Registered User

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    That is the proof I was seeking.
     
  13. pointwithinacircle2

    pointwithinacircle2 Rapscallion Premium Member

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    Perhaps this is the result of doing the work, not the work itself.
     
  14. pointwithinacircle2

    pointwithinacircle2 Rapscallion Premium Member

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    Just to follow up, and not to disagree at all, does one focus on the "Work to bring Order to Chaos of the heart" or is their another type of, or focus to, our work which brings this about as a side benefit?
     
  15. Elexir

    Elexir Registered User

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    That depends on the how you see it I guess.
    I would not call it result, rather a goal.
    You can always aim but in the end only (T)GATOU can decide if you achived it.
     
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  16. Warrior1256

    Warrior1256 Site Benefactor

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    True!
     
  17. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

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    Not too clear as to what you are asking here.

    The Work brings about the Order.

    That Order is a benefit and result.

    The Goal is to mature youths to adulthood. That takes Work.

    The focus however is knowing thyself and taming the beast of self.

    I call it training the dog. ;-)
     
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  18. Ripcord22A

    Ripcord22A Site Benefactor

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    What do u mean by Trivial work @coachn?



    Sent from my LG-H918 using My Freemasonry mobile app
     
  19. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

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    Trivial work: referring to the Trivium - Grammar, Logic & Rhetoric. The study is crucial to understanding allegory.
     
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  20. Warrior1256

    Warrior1256 Site Benefactor

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    I learn something new almost every day on this forum.
     
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