Women in masonry

Discussion in 'General Freemasonry Discussion' started by zouzoum, Apr 11, 2016.

  1. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

    Great question! It has not been that way at first. However, once I realized the reality of what Freemasonic organizations are actually doing, it explained a lot of the absolutely unnecessary confusion, insanity and drama.

    Now I engage in what the society offers with a much stronger foundational understanding of what it is truly trying to accomplish. I am not so easily sucked into the unnecessary confusion, insanity and drama.
    Ah! You've taken offense to the Light I have shared. Well understood. Let's get into it.

    Ritual (our privatized morality plays) is filled with allusions to what we can do to improve ourselves. I write books, memes, articles and produce videos to point out this fact and stress that it is not enough to have a road map; one must understand the road map, what it points to, what it offers us, and then travel its territories!

    Yes. If you're going to just memorize scripts and vomit them back, you're just an actor. However, the whole of what the fraternity offers is acting with a moral purpose! What is that purpose: Transform yourself toward the better.

    Our morality plays are there to point out there is Transformation Work that you can and should do!

    Unfortunately, most members never move beyond learning and acting out the scripts. Far too many members don't even know that Ritual is there pointing the way. Once I realized I was one of the mass of men who didn't realize this, I started writing and providing insight to those members who suspected there was more, but didn't know how to find and access it.

    I write "books beyond how to improve ones acting skills" because there exist men like me who want to get more out of the society than just being a plug-n-play actor supporting a degree factory.

    WOW! Amazing! for me they are morality plays that direct each patron's attention toward what each needs to improve himself.

    Unfortunately, most members do not take this Good Orderly Direction and actually apply it toward their lives in a deliberate way, beyond being really good actors supporting a system that they think is one thing but truly another.
    Derek Harvey, tldubb, BroBook and 2 others like this.
  2. Warrior1256

    Warrior1256 Site Benefactor

    I like this.
    coachn likes this.
  3. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

    Thanks Bro., it why I do what I do.
    tldubb, Warrior1256 and BroBook like this.
  4. Classical

    Classical Premium Member

    My favorite discussions on this board have been the ones where brothers share some of the meaning they have derived from Masonry. Thanks Bloke and Coach!
    coachn likes this.
  5. JamestheJust

    JamestheJust Registered User

    I was watching a visiting GL ritual team putting on their regalia and preparing to enter our lodge. And it seemed to me that none of them was deeply interested in Masonry but they did like being together and practicing ritual.
  6. BroBook

    BroBook Premium Member

    Women can not be Masons, but they can be part of the family, some reasons they can't one it would, be a distraction getting them prepared and during the ceremonies, it would get out of hand, but most importantly, they don't have the MM's pass!!!
    Classical and Warrior1256 like this.
  7. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

    You are mistaken. There are female Masons and some are actually part of Freemasonic Orders. BTW - Those that are report no problems in the prep and the ceremonies or the MM's pass in their Order.
  8. Bloke

    Bloke Premium Member


    I knew you would bit and I generally agree with you, but the question "Then why do you write books beyond how to improve ones acting skills ?" was almost theoretical :) I've not taken offense but have got vaguely annoyed with "refer to this link" which you know because you're smart enough to remember my comment on the same, Mind you, I also use "refer to this link" LOL..

    I hope you don't mind me reducing your statement - I've done so hoping folk with know " ...." means there are bits between what I have quoted, and I am sure I've not changed your meaning or intent.

    I agree, many Freemasons do not delve deeper, but like the passive pebble in a stream, the water of Freemasonry running over it can change a rough stone to the smooth, just by being in the moving water. I can point to things in me changed by my membership, but I am sure I've undergone change I don't even realize.

    By the same token, the "acting" is simply a device, albeit a successful one, to deliver moral lessons. At the end of the day, Freemasonry itself is simply a device to make diverse men join together and lean from each other (including those lessons included in our ceremonies encapsulated both in our ideals, values and some of the "characters" in our story; including the candidate himself).

    I walked out of my First Degree a changed man. With some new standards to live up to, and a fraternity of gentlemen to belong to. You can reduce this to a "device" as I have done, but by the same token it grossly sells what those touched by it experience.

    All this has little to do with "woman in freemasonry" but good conversations generally move beyond where they started :)
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2016
  9. Glen Cook

    Glen Cook G A Cook Site Benefactor

    It would be more accurate to say women are not members of regular Freemasinry. Per UGLE:

    There exist in England and Wales at least two Grand Lodges solely for women. Except that these bodies admit women, they are, so far as can be ascertained, otherwise regular in their practice. There is also one which admits both men and women to membership. They are not recognised by this Grand Lodge and intervisitation may not take place. There are, however, informal discussions from time to time with the women’s Grand Lodges on matters of mutual concern. Brethren are therefore free to explain to non-Masons, if asked, that Freemasonry is not confined to men (even though this Grand Lodge does not itself admit women). Further information about these bodies may be obtained by writing to the Grand Secretary.

    The Board is also aware that there exist other bodies not directly imitative of pure antient Masonry, but which by implication introduce Freemasonry, such as the Order of the Eastern Star. Membership of such bodies, attendance at their meetings or participation in their ceremonies is incompatible with membership of this Grand Lodge.

    (Extract from Report of Board of General Purposes, adopted 10 March 1999)
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  10. MarkR

    MarkR Premium Member

    I wish I was as sure about being right about things as you are. I personally think that saying all that Mary's Chapel did was "transition their business model" is unsupported by evidence. There was no "total-immersion live-action alternative-reality role-playing social-theater" when the Scottish lodges started admitting men like Sir Robert Moray. Nobody really knows why they came, and why they were accepted. As S. Brent Morris put it, some time in the 17th century, it was as if a train went through a tunnel; when it entered the tunnel it was red; when it emerged it was blue. We don't know who painted it, and more importantly, we don't know why.

    But I suppose you'll dismiss Morris as someone with an interest in perpetuating a myth.
    hanzosbm likes this.
  11. JamestheJust

    JamestheJust Registered User

    What would Masons do if they lost interest in speculating?
  12. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

    Agreed with one slight adjustment:

    It would be more accurate to say women are not members of RECOGNIZED Male-Craft Freemasonry. Per UGLE: WOMEN AND FREEMASONRY

    Regularity is set and determined by the GL. Since female-craft GLs set and determine regularity for themselves, they are regular; just not to male-craft GLs.​
  13. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

    <giggle>Then do your research, practice and make it a reality. ;-)

    BTW - I am not sure about "being right". I am confident in what I say. There is a huge difference.
    As is your right. We are all just sharing opinions here.
    But are you so sure about this? Evidence says differently.
    What I stated does not conflict with Brother Brent's statements.

    If you believe that that business transition was instantaneous or that it was conscious or deliberate on their part with an end-in-mind, we will have to disagree. I believe the transition was a series of choices and decisions that were motivated by money, personal interests and short term goals.

    When you examine what they did then and what Freemasons do now, it should be clear that the two operations are as different from each other as living the dream and acting out a fantasy. It should also be clear too that their business model was originally premised upon bringing members in to teach them stonecraft and to make them productive stonecraft workers for the business.

    The moment they chose to include members who were not going to support that business model is the moment they chose to sell membership into something else to create a revenue stream not dependent upon sales of stonecraft product and services but upon an offered theater that was not stonecraft.

    Keep in mind, the common thread between the stonecraft lodge activities and what is now referred to as the early "speculative" period was the dinner parties both offered that included drinking, eating, singing, discourse and, ...wait for it... entertainment.

    To tie this back into the main theme, it should be clear that the wives of these included men had to be appeased and in about 100 years of so of these dinner party activities occurring that were put on for the benefit of all involved, they enacted a rule to assure that no man could be excluded due to the concerns of any wife who feared that he was part of a dinner party society that had women as members.

    Sadly, there is very little dinner party activity going on in this GL era. All that we typically have offered to us now, beyond Degree activities, are boring business meetings, installations and GL visits.
    BroBook likes this.
  14. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

    I'm glad to hear that you did not take offense. I'm deeply concerned that you're only vaguely annoyed. I was shooting for something much more disturbing. :)
    I believe they are called "ellipsis" and are usually used as follows, "...". Any more periods shows a proclivity for banging upon the keyboard unnecessarily. :)
    STOP! You have me at "I agree..."!
    Of Course it is! It is profoundly moving, to the right audience.
    It is a vehicle that forces no one to do anything.
    Amazing! How specifically were "you" changed?
  15. Ripcord22A

    Ripcord22A Site Benefactor

    Ill be Honest, I didnt. Going through the degrees was interesting and fun but I didnt really get anything out of it untill I saw them done, participated in them, and started studying them. Honestly I get more out of it by watching them now then I did being the candidate. I do however volunteer to e the "candidate" when ever we do a practive or 'MOCK' degree. This does not mean that I agree with classes or multiple candidates. I think seeing the degree with out having experienced it will not have the same effect of seeing it after having experienced it.

    Kinda like watching a video of war on tv or the internet. It looks sacry and exciting and dangerous and what not....but if you have never been shot at, shot at someone else, had your vehilce blown up by a roadsife bomb, ect ect then you dont really get what its like. I watched a documetary on HBO the other day call "Only the Dead have seen the end of war" and there were certain sceans where my adrenaline spiked, my heart raced and it made me want to go back to Iraq. My wife was sitting there watching with me and at one point the a terriorst dude got smoked by some US soldiers and they dragged him over to a walled court yard to search him he was still sorta "alive". by alive i mean he still had a pulse and was trying to breath but half his brain was no longer in his skull. My wife looked at me and I was kinda smirking. He had got what he deserved. She said " I dont know how dealt with stuff like this." and got up and left the room. She didnt understand it. Just like a candidate sitting on the sidelines wont get it fully.
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2016
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  16. Derinique Kendrick

    Derinique Kendrick Registered User

    My exact feelings!
    coachn likes this.
  17. dfreybur

    dfreybur Premium Member

    There are groups that teach "Fake it until you make it" because acting successful in business tends to lead to success in business. I content that participation in our degrees works that way on character. We act out the characters in a story of a great act of dedication to doing what is right at all times. Each of us acts as the star of the events at least once. Many of us act every part many times. It has to have some small amount of impact on us.


    General semantics teaches that all knowledge is provisional. When we think we're right what we actually think is that so far we haven't learned ways that we were wrong so that we could improve.


    The Scientific Method teaches us that all data has "error bars" that estimate the uncertainty of our knowledge. This makes all theory provisional, but better than that it gives us tools to estimate the degree of real certainty we may have in acting like any one provisional stance is "right". Being "right" is really a matter of how many decimal places at this moment in this circumstance.

    There are times when we know the size of the error bars. That's when our confidence is real. with inorganic chemistry I have never even touched an instrument that is capable of changing any digit of any entry in a book of inorganic chemistry tables. I know there's more to inorganic chemistry than is know today but if I reference any entry in a table from the CRC book I know exactly how confident I can be.

    There are other times when we guess at the size of the error bars. When we guess they are small that's called being confident. But well educated men know that the uncertainty never goes away in human endeavors.

    This blurb should go in the "What is Philosophy" thread I think, but here it is thanks to thread drift.
    coachn likes this.
  18. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

    Yep. Hence my comment.
  19. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

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  20. zouzoum

    zouzoum Registered User

    Brethren , this is the first time i receive this number of comments on a post i make on this app . Now i agree why no woman should be a mason . They will get more attention and distract us from doing the Great Work :p

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