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Why the secrets?

dalinkou

Premium Member
I have read that Masonic ritual is rather powerful and it is just as well that Masons are not very good at their ritual.

On a couple of occasions when demonstrating the inner effects of crossing the deacons wands, I had to cut short the demonstration as the brother standing under the wands was overloaded by the Light from on high.

?
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
I have read that Masonic ritual is rather powerful and it is just as well that Masons are not very good at their ritual.
Where? and what does being not very good at their ritual have to do with it? (your use of "their" raises a major flag!)
On a couple of occasions when demonstrating the inner effects of crossing the deacons wands, I had to cut short the demonstration as the brother standing under the wands was overloaded by the Light from on high.
perplexedbanner.jpg
 

hanzosbm

Premium Member
Brothers, if I may...

Brother JamesTheJust may have some ideas that not all of us share, and that's okay. I'm sure we have some ideas he doesn't necessarily agree with. But shouldn't we keep an open mind about things? Or at the very least, be respectful of one another's ideas?

Not from Freemasonry, but my college Greek fraternity had a lesson on esteem contained within its chief tenants. "esteem, that is respectful to the honest convictions of others and refrains from treading upon that which is sacred to spirit and conscience".
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
Brothers, if I may...

Brother JamesTheJust may have some ideas that not all of us share, and that's okay. I'm sure we have some ideas he doesn't necessarily agree with. But shouldn't we keep an open mind about things? Or at the very least, be respectful of one another's ideas?

Not from Freemasonry, but my college Greek fraternity had a lesson on esteem contained within its chief tenants. "esteem, that is respectful to the honest convictions of others and refrains from treading upon that which is sacred to spirit and conscience".
Okay, so you open the can or worms. Time to get specific: Where are the minds closed and where is the lack of respect?

BTW -
"An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof." — Marcello Truzzi, On the Extraordinary: An Attempt at Clarification, Zetetic Scholar, Vol. 1, No. 1, p. 11, 1978

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan

"The weight of evidence for an extraordinary claim must be proportioned to its strangeness."
-- Laplace

"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence", and "No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish." -- David Hume (1748)​
 
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LAMason

Premium Member
Some members of this and other forums seem to believe that it is OK for someone to make false or outrageous statements and that if someone else calls them out on those claims that they are being intolerant and unmasonic. I personally believe the opposite. As a Mason I believe that Truth is important. BS is BS regardless of who says it.
 

pointwithinacircle2

Rapscallion
Premium Member
Some members of this and other forums seem to believe that it is OK for someone to make false or outrageous statements and that if someone else calls them out on those claims that they are being intolerant and unmasonic. I personally believe the opposite. As a Mason I believe that Truth is important. BS is BS regardless of who says it.
Please clarify something for me. I once had an experience where, while praying, a blinding white light appeared before me. A specific religious figure (the one I was praying to) stepped out of the light and reached out to me. As our hands touched I was given understanding that I had previously lacked. Then the light faded and I was able to see the room around me again. I stood up and walked away but I had a new understanding of everything around me. That feeling has never really left me.

Now, was that truth or BS? Is it false and outrageous? What makes it false and outrageous other than the fact that you did not experience it? Is it true? How can you accept something as true when the only evidence of it is that I told you about it? Is my description accurate or did my mind merely interpret an unfathomable experience in terms of the only symbols it knew? And finally, suppose that experience had happened during a Masonic ritual instead of in a church. Is my experience believable in one location and time but not in another?
 

LAMason

Premium Member
Please clarify something for me. I once had an experience where, while praying, a blinding white light appeared before me. A specific religious figure (the one I was praying to) stepped out of the light and reached out to me. As our hands touched I was given understanding that I had previously lacked. Then the light faded and I was able to see the room around me again. I stood up and walked away but I had a new understanding of everything around me. That feeling has never really left me.

Now, was that truth or BS? Is it false and outrageous? What makes it false and outrageous other than the fact that you did not experience it? Is it true? How can you accept something as true when the only evidence of it is that I told you about it? Is my description accurate or did my mind merely interpret an unfathomable experience in terms of the only symbols it knew? And finally, suppose that experience had happened during a Masonic ritual instead of in a church. Is my experience believable in one location and time but not in another?

With all due respect, I do not believe such things happen.
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
Although my query was on evidence of disrespect, I'll take a shot at this.
Now, was that truth or BS?
Neither. It was your experience.
Is it false and outrageous?
Neither. It was your experience.
What makes it false and outrageous other than the fact that you did not experience it?
Someone else's judgment doesn't make it anything else but your experience.
Is it true?
It was your experience. Your conclusion as to it being true or false is what you get from examining it and assigning it meaning.
How can you accept something as true when the only evidence of it is that I told you about it?
Well, you could use a metaphor or analogy to describe it and do so well enough that I can compare it to what I have experienced to see if there is anything that I can relate to. or equate it to, and then go from there.
Is my description accurate or did my mind merely interpret an unfathomable experience in terms of the only symbols it knew?
Why do you put this as an either/or? Why not both, as in, your description IS accurate AND you mind merely interpreted it as you stated?
And finally, suppose that experience had happened during a Masonic ritual instead of in a church. Is my experience believable in one location and time but not in another?
If the hallucination that you described above occurred anywhere, I'd still be more concerned with your relative state of health regardless. These are not usual occurrences for people to have and there is usually an unusual body or mental stressor that causes it to occur. This health concern is the only believability that I would take away from your description of your experience.

It sounds like an interesting experience though. I have heard similar non-ordinary reality experiences from others who I know who are normally well-grounded in ordinary reality. The common ground that these experiences all share though are unusual stressors.
 

dfreybur

Premium Member
Please clarify something for me. I once had an experience where, while praying, a blinding white light appeared before me. A specific religious figure (the one I was praying to) stepped out of the light and reached out to me. As our hands touched I was given understanding that I had previously lacked. Then the light faded and I was able to see the room around me again. I stood up and walked away but I had a new understanding of everything around me. That feeling has never really left me.

When similar happened to me it was in a dream and after a year of pondering about it I decided for it to be my conversion experience.

Now, was that truth or BS? Is it false and outrageous? What makes it false and outrageous other than the fact that you did not experience it? Is it true? How can you accept something as true when the only evidence of it is that I told you about it? Is my description accurate or did my mind merely interpret an unfathomable experience in terms of the only symbols it knew?

True-for-me has no conflict with false-for-you. Such experiences are always individual and subjective.

What I have to show in support of mine is that it is now nearly 30 years later and I remain devout in my religion of choice. As you write - That feeling has never really left me, either.

And finally, suppose that experience had happened during a Masonic ritual instead of in a church. Is my experience believable in one location and time but not in another?

Hmmm. Hmmm. Nope, I got nothin'. Pass.
 

LAMason

Premium Member
I want to clarify and expand my previous comment. I certainly believe that people have epiphanies and conversion experiences. However I view those as similar to times when I have been thinking about problems in both my personal life and for work when seemingly out of nowhere the solution becomes clear. I have even had times that I woke up in the middle of the night and knew the solution.
epiphany%20complete.png

“The Myths of Innovation” (P 8), by Scott Berkun

As far as visions or hallucinations, that may accompany an epiphany or conversion experience, I can only say that I realize they are very real to the person experiencing them but determining the cause would depend on many factors and should be left to professionals, but also think that there is a vast difference between someone realizing that it was a vision or hallucination vs believing that it was real.

Compare and contrast someone relating a personal epiphany or vision to the following which include shared hallucinations and physical manifestations:

For various reasons I was the candidate in the 18th on 5 occasions over some years. On the 4th occasion, doing the perambulations it seemed to me that the floor had opened up like a vortex. Later the secretary told me that he could see me surrounded by light at that stage of the ceremony.

In that case my "hallucination" was shared.

I have read that Masonic ritual is rather powerful and it is just as well that Masons are not very good at their ritual.

On a couple of occasions when demonstrating the inner effects of crossing the deacons wands, I had to cut short the demonstration as the brother standing under the wands was overloaded by the Light from on high.

In one lodge I used to attend there was a chair in the North that was always left vacant for symbolic reasons.

I remember speaking to one of the oldest members of that lodge and he said that when he was an apprentice he rested his arm on the armrest of that chair in the North. Immediately he experienced his arm being pushed off the armrest - but there was no one nearby. He put his arm back on the rest and again it was pushed off.

For example, when the "working tools" are known and used in a "moral" sense it is possible to measure the "morality" of a fellow human, e.g. detecting and measuring corruption before any word or action occurs. Imagine how difficult it would be for the political system if such a skill were commonplace.

Equally a genuine FC might have a great insight into probabilities of the near future, able to make large profits from stock trading.

More concerning, a genuine FC, having learned to control his/her level of consciousness, with some practice is then able to control (within limits) the consciousness of less developed humans. This would be a significant skill for politicians.

At a more advanced level the genuine FC can alter flows of etheric energy, potentially disrupting the life force of biological entities or the operation of machines e.g. making aircraft engines run too cool and therefore lose power.

There are also diagonal pavements that ought to be used when both Wardens are in the West e.g in some French workings, in the 18th and in the 30th. Those diagonal setups, when interacting with the Light from the East (but not the Light of the GAOTU) produce a different energy field, a bit further to the West than occurs with the Wardens at right angles.

I also find it revealing when someone is not willing to share what Masonic Jurisdiction they belong to.
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
Quite so.
<sigh> Yet, the question still remains...
Truth is established by authority.
HUH? Truth IS! and all that is necessary to see it is realization.
Alternatively Masonry might be a science ...
might? If it's Masonry (not Freemasonry) it is both Science AND Art.
...and therefore open to direct investigation by the brethren.
Masons who don't investigate, are likely only Freemasons.
 

Ripcord22A

Site Benefactor
Coach why do you do that? You know darn well that when someone on heresy mason they mean freemason unless they say operative mason. Im familiar with your books and know you have alot of "free"masonic knowledge. However over the last few weeks I've been watching your posts and you come across like a punk that knows full well what someone is saying but wants to make them feel stupid.....if that's not your intention then know you know that at least 1 brother feels that's how u cone across
 

LAMason

Premium Member
I know we have gotten off topic, so I apologize for that.

First, let me reiterate that I am a literal person, so if someone sees metaphor and allegory in everything, they will probably not agree with my interpretation:

Second, for discussion purposes, I will state two stipulative definitions for “real” depending on the context of its usage.

1. Actually existing as a thing. (Tangible)-must be able to be sensed by one of the 5 senses by others.

2. Occurring in fact. (Genuine)-not necessarily sensed by one of the 5 senses by others.

In the context of your experience, of course it was Genuine.

In the context of what you saw it would need to be Tangible.

Since I have never had such an experience, I will have to rely on your perception of what you saw. Did you perceive it as Tangible or as a vision/hallucination/something you imagined?

Was what you saw different than the visual, auditory, or tactile hallucinations that someone on drugs, with a mental illness, or experiencing delirium tremens might experience?
 

pointwithinacircle2

Rapscallion
Premium Member
I have never had
visual, auditory, or tactile hallucinations that someone on drugs, with a mental illness, or experiencing delirium tremens might experience
so I cannot compare my experience to theirs. The best explanation I can give you is to say that I choose to honor my intuition equally with the evidence of the five physical senses. In Neurobiology concentrating on the information of the five senses is called focused thinking, while relaxing and letting the answers come to you is called diffused thinking. Intuition and imagination are examples of diffuse thinking. I am merely suggesting that if you only use your focused thinking you are making a choice to ignore both the way your brain naturally works and and the solutions that it is prepared to show you.
 
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