What's new
By:
Advanced search…
My Freemasonry | Freemason Information and Discussion Forum

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

The big pink elephant in the room...

Status
Not open for further replies.
Bro. Vincent

Bro. Vincent

Registered User
Bro. Blake I will say this... I understand what you are getting at but, I will humbly say IMO, it is not correct when people of color around the globe are called racist.

Racism is a term used when a group oppresses another group( be it social, economical, physical or physiological and/or in the case of slavery all four) based on the color of their skin. And black people are not in position to oppress anyone!

Where prejudice simply means in this context to Pre- Judge a person based on their skin color or culture. We are all certainly capable of that...

So I feel the PHA aren't in a position to be racist. I personally feel the GLs of PHA around the world on some levels have given up trying to be recognized by MS lodges, because it feels there will never be honest and mural recognition.

The damage slavery has caused in this country will never go away until this country has an honest discussion about it. And the masonic landscape is just an microcosm of the country at large.

I think PHA Grand lodges feel as if, you know what? We have our degree work and rituals why should we fight this battle when we don't have to...we have our original warrant/charter. We won in federal court to be recognized as a legitimate body and there is no reason that we should have to continue to fight to be recognized. ( and I am saying "I think" that is the consensus)

Sounds like the same thing as civil rights fights when even though black folks were free from slavery, Jim Crow was alive and well ripe with Racism.

I do agree with what a poster said earlier in this thread that as younger members on both sides come up more of those walls will be broken down.

But I do feel there are some cultural things in PHA lodges that are probably different than in MS lodges and I personally would hate to see those things disappear because the lodges combine...from a cultural aspect.


Freemason Connect Mobile
 
Michael Hatley

Michael Hatley

Premium Member
I will say two things:

1. There are extremes to everything.

2. Speaking about Texas, as Texas only here - the more I dig, the more I find that the ball is well and truly in PH's court. I'll post specifics at some point soon (some of the things were communicated to me on the square, or it was implied), but brass tacks here: do not assume this problem is rooted in "mainstream" Grand Lodges. Not even in the deep south. I did that. I'm finding out I assumed wrong.

A very, very real truth: Prince Hall Master Masons are going to have to lean on their Grand Lodges. Not for the reasons you might think - to stir them to action, swallow their pride or something of that sort. Rather, to convince.

And in the end it may require changes of leadership.

I'm going to throw out something for some of the lurking long time PHA Masons to chew on. How much does an endowed membership cost at your lodge? How much does it cost at one of the "upscale" PHA lodges in your state? Check it.

Now consider that at my lodge, an endowment (life membership) is a mere $500. And while some places in Texas it is more expensive (Holland #1, Doric, and others), there are still many, many, many GLoTX lodges that cost $500 or so. And have yearly dues at around $100.

Now, think about it. Really consider it.
 
Michael Neumann

Michael Neumann

Premium Member
Bro. Vincent said:
Bro. Blake I will say this... I understand what you are getting at but, I will humbly say IMO, it is not correct when people of color around the globe are called racist.

Racism is a term used when a group oppresses another group( be it social, economical, physical or physiological and/or in the case of slavery all four) based on the color of their skin. And black people are not in position to oppress anyone!

Where prejudice simply means in this context to Pre- Judge a person based on their skin color or culture. We are all certainly capable of that...

So I feel the PHA aren't in a position to be racist. I personally feel the GLs of PHA around the world on some levels have given up trying to be recognized by MS lodges, because it feels there will never be honest and mural recognition.

The damage slavery has caused in this country will never go away until this country has an honest discussion about it. And the masonic landscape is just an microcosm of the country at large.

I think PHA Grand lodges feel as if, you know what? We have our degree work and rituals why should we fight this battle when we don't have to...we have our original warrant/charter. We won in federal court to be recognized as a legitimate body and there is no reason that we should have to continue to fight to be recognized. ( and I am saying "I think" that is the consensus)

Sounds like the same thing as civil rights fights when even though black folks were free from slavery, Jim Crow was alive and well ripe with Racism.

I do agree with what a poster said earlier in this thread that as younger members on both sides come up more of those walls will be broken down.

But I do feel there are some cultural things in PHA lodges that are probably different than in MS lodges and I personally would hate to see those things disappear because the lodges combine...from a cultural aspect.


Freemason Connect Mobile
Click to expand...
An honest discussion about race?

Qualifying statement - My first girlfriend was dark skinned and my wife only dated darker guys before I met her. My best friend is Panamanian/Black American (his father was DARK so if you want to simplify to skin tones then he was indeed black) and we have had the below argument before.

I am about to upset most readers so please pass this post.

First I am tired of all the racism directed at lighter (white) skinned Americans because of the past. The employment system is rigged in the minority's favor (Title 7) as are business grants and the government has openly stated they are going to award over 50% of all contracts to minority owned businesses.

"White" Americans have bent over backward to appease "Black" Americans. You know how often "Blacks" come up in chats with my friends? Never because it does not factor in to daily events, we chat about food, women, aircraft, MMA, whatever. I can tell you that I have walked into many many conversations between black guys where they were trashing whites... not that it is normal but it seems to be far more common than I would have thought. Think about it, how frequently have you complained about racism? I was personally sat down BY EMPLOYEE RELATIONS and told as a young white male I would not succeed in the company and I need to keep my head down and do as I was told, this was told to me by an American black female. You know what I did? Nothing, I ignored her and felt sorry that she was such a POS.

It is accepted in America that BET is ok but WET would not be (and it would sound stupid), Ebony is ok but Ivory would not be the magazine Black Man is ok but a magazine White Man would not be. I can go on and on and on. If a black comedian makes the most awful dirty comments about whites it is funny but if a white comedian makes the slightest joke he is taken off the air.

Yes, racism is possible and is currently employed by America... against whites. I am tired of hearing about this slavery sh-t. EVERY RACE IN THE WORLD has endured slavery... EVERYONE. It has been over 100 years and still there is this banter about racism and politically correct African American term..... Tell me, what part of Africa are you from, have you visited your relatives? If you cannot answer that then you are not African American... you are Simply American. My grandfather came to the US when he was 16 but I do not call myself European American because that is stupid. I am Simply American.

Get over your skin color.
 
James F Jackson

James F Jackson

Registered User
good morning went back home to key west, and went to a local club and witnessed a few navy guys in the club and a few of them had on blue shirts with a the square and compass printed on them. as the nite progressed they started hailing each other in the middle the dance floor. Even though i am not as mason, i felt they was being. disrespectful.

Freemason Connect Mobile
 
E

El Dud3rino

Registered User
Thank Bro. Michael Neumann,

Nobody has brought those points to the table so far.
The reality EVERYONE!!!!!!! Has a small amount of racism and prejudice in them...... Everyone! Think about it, don't react with out truly thinking about it. I'm not talking blacks or whites..... But maybe different maybe you don't like Mexican's or think that a certain race works slower or harder then another these are the undertones to racism and prejudice. We all have them, what is important is how we choose to act about them. We can grow or sit and drown in our own tears. I have had lots of things in my life happen that I could begin to dislike certain ethnic groups for things that have happened to me but they were not worth all that.
If we want harp on slavery...... Please let's stop,slavery has taken place by almost every culture since time begin. And the funny thing is???? It's almost always the slaves own people selling the slaves. Look at history people and learn that your color does not define or cage you. Only you do!


Freemason Connect Mobile
 
dew_time

dew_time

Registered User
El Dud3rino said:
Thank Bro. Michael Neumann,

Nobody has brought those points to the table so far.
The reality EVERYONE!!!!!!! Has a small amount of racism and prejudice in them...... Everyone! Think about it, don't react with out truly thinking about it. I'm not talking blacks or whites..... But maybe different maybe you don't like Mexican's or think that a certain race works slower or harder then another these are the undertones to racism and prejudice. We all have them, what is important is how we choose to act about them. We can grow or sit and drown in our own tears. I have had lots of things in my life happen that I could begin to dislike certain ethnic groups for things that have happened to me but they were not worth all that.
If we want harp on slavery...... Please let's stop,slavery has taken place by almost every culture since time begin. And the funny thing is???? It's almost always the slaves own people selling the slaves. Look at history people and learn that your color does not define or cage you. Only you do!


Freemason Connect Mobile
Click to expand...

I can't say I agree with all that has been said here. I don't like terrorist but for the simple fact that I don't want to explode randomly while at a store or anything.

Sent from my LG-VM696 using Freemasonry mobile app
 
E

El Dud3rino

Registered User
Nothing is as random as we think. The reality is if you think about how many random actions do you do? Or truly see? Did you randomly petition a lodge? Did you randomly find your wife? No these are all choices, logical at that. We have a choice of what we do, the actions we take give us results we intended. Life is not that random.
That is more of what I'm getting at. You do not like A, so now you can choose how to react to A. You all ways have free choice. You can react in a positive or negative manner and then go from there. As Masons we choose (hopefully) a positive path one of enlightenment.


Freemason Connect Mobile
 
Bro. Vincent

Bro. Vincent

Registered User
Michael Neumann said:
An honest discussion about race?

Qualifying statement - My first girlfriend was dark skinned and my wife only dated darker guys before I met her. My best friend is Panamanian/Black American (his father was DARK so if you want to simplify to skin tones then he was indeed black) and we have had the below argument before.

I am about to upset most readers so please pass this post.

First I am tired of all the racism directed at lighter (white) skinned Americans because of the past. The employment system is rigged in the minority's favor (Title 7) as are business grants and the government has openly stated they are going to award over 50% of all contracts to minority owned businesses.

"White" Americans have bent over backward to appease "Black" Americans. You know how often "Blacks" come up in chats with my friends? Never because it does not factor in to daily events, we chat about food, women, aircraft, MMA, whatever. I can tell you that I have walked into many many conversations between black guys where they were trashing whites... not that it is normal but it seems to be far more common than I would have thought. Think about it, how frequently have you complained about racism? I was personally sat down BY EMPLOYEE RELATIONS and told as a young white male I would not succeed in the company and I need to keep my head down and do as I was told, this was told to me by an American black female. You know what I did? Nothing, I ignored her and felt sorry that she was such a POS.

It is accepted in America that BET is ok but WET would not be (and it would sound stupid), Ebony is ok but Ivory would not be the magazine Black Man is ok but a magazine White Man would not be. I can go on and on and on. If a black comedian makes the most awful dirty comments about whites it is funny but if a white comedian makes the slightest joke he is taken off the air.

Yes, racism is possible and is currently employed by America... against whites. I am tired of hearing about this slavery sh-t. EVERY RACE IN THE WORLD has endured slavery... EVERYONE. It has been over 100 years and still there is this banter about racism and politically correct African American term..... Tell me, what part of Africa are you from, have you visited your relatives? If you cannot answer that then you are not African American... you are Simply American. My grandfather came to the US when he was 16 but I do not call myself European American because that is stupid. I am Simply American.

Get over your skin color.
Click to expand...

Me. Neumann I'm not offended in the least because your argument is asinine at best to me. Your personal dealings in what you consider is affirmative Action against whites by black is ridiculous. And heard it a million times.

There is nothing you can put up my personal experiences in this country and call it reverse racism. And to clear the air here before you say I race bait and all that sort of nonsense, my wife is white and I have two beautiful children with her... Her family is and has been very accepting and loving of me and my family treats her the same. I want that on the record before I proceed...

Because you dated a "darker skinned" women and have a couple of "black friends" surely can't make you an expert on all things black, could it?

I work in corporate America and I assure you there are not bunches and bunches of blacks taking jobs from white men in this country. Thats street level boogie man crap to keep people divided...I will tell you what is happening is the expansion of laws to put more black kids in jail. This my brother is a fact. Which is a totally different conversation. Please study the "Prison Industrial Complex".

My neighbor is black and has a contracting Busniess. He was awarded a federal contract only because the white Busniess he contracts with needed him to satisfy that portion of their contract bid, while they pay him peanuts. Of course. Happens everyday but you aren't told those stories...

I will leave you with this... Every time black folk band together and become industrious and self sufficient there is always an unseen hand trying to monopolize or destroy it... Why?

Please study the "Black Wall Street" of Tulsa, Ok.





Freemason Connect Mobile
 
dew_time

dew_time

Registered User
El Dud3rino said:
Nothing is as random as we think. The reality is if you think about how many random actions do you do? Or truly see? Did you randomly petition a lodge? Did you randomly find your wife? No these are all choices, logical at that. We have a choice of what we do, the actions we take give us results we intended. Life is not that random.
That is more of what I'm getting at. You do not like A, so now you can choose how to react to A. You all ways have free choice. You can react in a positive or negative manner and then go from there. As Masons we choose (hopefully) a positive path one of enlightenment.


Freemason Connect Mobile
Click to expand...

I do agree with this.

Freemason Connect Mobile
 
Bro. David F. Hill

Bro. David F. Hill

David F. Hill
Premium Member
Here goes my response: You do have WET, it is every other channel other than BET. You do have Ivory magazine, it is called Vogue, Elle, etc. The largest group of minority owned businesses in Texas is WO/F. A vast majority of these are white owned and some are ones where the husband gave the wife a 51% stake. You want to talk about Life Membership? Most states do not have any such program. Look at Austin, for many generations blacks were segregated on the east side. Go over there today and you will see that it has been gratified. Blacks that have lived there for generations can no longer afford to live there.

Freemason Connect Mobile
 
Bro. Vincent

Bro. Vincent

Registered User
....see aren't we all having a brotherly good time? I gotta go, my family is coming I gotta get the grill going lol...I wish all brethren a safe and beautiful Memorial Day weekend!


Freemason Connect Mobile
 
dew_time

dew_time

Registered User
Bro. Vincent said:
....see aren't we all having a brotherly good time? I gotta go, my family is coming I gotta get the grill going lol...I wish all brethren a safe and beautiful Memorial Day weekend!


Freemason Connect Mobile
Click to expand...

Enjoy brother!! I'm about to watch my son graduate.. I feel so old today, lol.

Freemason Connect Mobile
 
dew_time

dew_time

Registered User
PH021211 said:
Here goes my response: You do have WET, it is every other channel other than BET. You do have Ivory magazine, it is called Vogue, Elle, etc. The largest group of minority owned businesses in Texas is WO/F. A vast majority of these are white owned and some are ones where the husband gave the wife a 51% stake. You want to talk about Life Membership? Most states do not have any such program. Look at Austin, for many generations blacks were segregated on the east side. Go over there today and you will see that it has been gratified. Blacks that have lived there for generations can no longer afford to live there.

Freemason Connect Mobile
Click to expand...

I think Harlem has gone though the same changes you mentioned east Austin has. Columbus Ohio is seeing the same thing...

Freemason Connect Mobile
 
E

El Dud3rino

Registered User
Look at the big picture Bro Vincent and understand that what you see in your area does not reflect the rest of the world. Through out my career and life I have lived and worked in large corp areas. Detroit(proper not burbs), Houston, Dallas, Chicago, New Orleans, Norfolk, Boston. I have seen blacks excel in all those areas, both in corp setting and personal endeavors. So I think it comes down to a story I heard in church once that basically says if you look for something you will find it.


Freemason Connect Mobile
 
Bro. Vincent

Bro. Vincent

Registered User
El Dud3rino said:
Look at the big picture Bro Vincent and understand that what you see in your area does not reflect the rest of the world. Through out my career and life I have lived and worked in large corp areas. Detroit(proper not burbs), Houston, Dallas, Chicago, New Orleans, Norfolk, Boston. I have seen blacks excel in all those areas, both in corp setting and personal endeavors. So I think it comes down to a story I heard in church once that basically says if you look for something you will find it.


Freemason Connect Mobile
Click to expand...

I always try to look at the bigger picture but you cant discount the little things that shape your experiences in life. When you have small children you know God willing, they are going to get bigger at some point and they are going to grow up and leave home. So you cherish the small moments you have while their young. And those experiences shape your life's past and future.

I am not wrapped up in trying to throw things in people's face and create a woe is black folk scenario, but let's call a spade a spade. That's all I'm saying, no more no less... I try to speak truths and it gets me in trouble at times but if you can't be honest then you simply can't be...

I'm not saying that black people dont have a lot to work to do in this society, don't get me wrong, but the issue is systemic and to fix it you've got to identify the root issue and deal with it.

If you have a cockroach in your house and you spray and kill it, you pretty much know there are 1000s of them somewhere in your house and if you don't find the root of them your issue is never solved...


Freemason Connect Mobile
 
E

El Dud3rino

Registered User
Bro Vincent,
Bringing kids into this conversation is a great way to make my next point. The fact is that racism and prejudice are taught and learned by people we love and look up too. Nothing is learned from nothing every one has a source be it good or bad, we all have a source we learn from, look at Masonry in general( including all bodies) you have a mentor bringing you up in the degrees. You learn from them what Masonry is about so it shapes your outlook. Same thing with kids and people. So if we teach them racism and prejudice they will grow up with it. Even if you teach them you had difficult issues with race, they too will wear that yoke of burden. I personally have been working with my kids to understand borders, colors, and religion do not confine people.
About East Austin, people will always want to be around their own people, hence "birds of a feather, flock together". Urban renewal is and has happened every where I have lived. It's not about running races out of neighborhoods, it's about getting higher tax rates for buildings so cities can continue. Many of the projects I walked through to my elementary school in Norfolk were closed down and new ones put up. The people stayed but payed more in taxes. Houston and Detroit are the same as well.
Bro. Vincent, to a certain degree you like to stir the pot, if not you would not have brought this subject up. We have to start being real and understanding what motivates us to do things or we teach our kids lies. Think about this before you respond. It's easy to have a knee jerk reaction and say no, but actions speak louder then words.
Words are empty, we attach meanings and thoughts to them that are mere speculation. When in truth we could say A but mean Z. When I work with people training them the first thing I let them know is their words are empty but will be filled by their actions.


Freemason Connect Mobile
 
jwhoff

jwhoff

Premium Member
All. Please remember that Brother Newman has taken the step to poll masons throughout Texas in an effort to put pressure on the two grand lodges to act.

This brother is walking the walk! He's put his reputation and, yes, masonry on the line to bring us all closer. This is a young man I, personally, am proud to call brother. His statements above are not without much justification.

During my professional career I did see much of what he proposes. I too saw little opportunity for minorities and women during my earlier days. Like busing, i saw laws changed to change the inequality. Yes, I've seen abuses and advantage taken often during my lifetime. Things are better now. Companies are more and more hiring the best applicants and promoting the best minds.

Make no mistake, equality is not here nor do I expect it will ever be possible.

More of late I have seen the Americans, of any color, passed on to hire foreign nationals with equal qualifications. Companies are now paying these foreign nationals less money to do the same work ... just as they once did minorities and continue to do to females in the professional world.

I do not wish to steal the thread but I do wish to draw your attention to the very real economic revolution we, as a planet, are now going through. The national state is on its last legs, the age of the corporate state is upon us. Watch closely the proceedings of the Global Eight and Global 24 nations during the coming months and years. Individual states are going to try to wrestle power away from the global corporations, making them pay an equal share of taxes within each nation and become more responsive to their responsibilities within each nation.

And, while you are considering this very important trend, consider how much energy peoples should be investing in racism and religious conflict. Inequality may well soon be measured more than by the skin tone or gender of the individual.

Again, please ponder this but do not allow it to steal the thread.
 
Last edited:
Bro. David F. Hill

Bro. David F. Hill

David F. Hill
Premium Member
Until you have been picked up because you kinda looked like someone who was accused of doing something, you will not get it. This incident happened to me when I lived in Houston in 1990. I have lived through a lot of "Urban Renewal" beginning back in the 1970's. Back then you had what was euphemistically called "White Flight" to the suburbs. To make the statement that "people will always want to be around their own people, hence "birds of a feather, flock together" shows that you are young and do not know the history of Austin or many cities for that matter. For many generations blacks could not live anywhere else but the east side. Even now, there are places that I don't want to find myself at when the streetlights come on. At 56, I have seen and experienced the good and bad that people can do. I could be bitter but I refuse to be. I leave you with this question; How many of you respect the current President? Did you respect the previous one? And before you start bringing up supposed controversies, do some research. You will find that each one had his own share but many want to use the these current ones to derail policies that would benefit the many.
 
Bro. David F. Hill

Bro. David F. Hill

David F. Hill
Premium Member
I have no problem with him in his quest but don't confuse that with thinking you understand being black. I spoke on it this weekend. But I do want to publically commend Brother Hoff for an enlightening post. While the powers that be have us arguing over black vs white, they are screwing us all for green.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top