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What is 'clandestine'?

Warrior1256

Warrior1256

Site Benefactor
dfreybur said:
With orders under a couple of decades old they are common. Consider that Texas forbids membership in the most popular motorcycle riding and charity fundraising order but allows the second most popular one.

For older orders it's pretty much the sole domain of the Imperial Shrine to butt heads with GL level in state after state.

One of my lodges has a long line of members who ended up Potentate from an era where the lodge was extremely active well past the historical peak. In an era where a brother joining almost any lodge could step into the line just by showing up at every meeting, that particular lodge had a waiting list for chairs. Some got disgruntled and joined the line in the local Shrine instead. Given that history I figure the attitude ended up concentrated among brothers that went into the Imperial line in the Shrine after being Past Potentate at their local Shrine. They are the guys who could have ended up GM but who weren't installed into chairs so they got derailed early on.

The word ambition comes to mind but I figure it takes ambition to move on to the state grand line just as it does to move on to the shrine grand line. And so we have Imperial Potentates butting heads with Grand Masters. That this does not happen in other organizations I think has to do with their state organizations.
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Thank you for the info brother.
 
Glen Cook

Glen Cook

G A Cook
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Joining YR will not impact your Lodge membership in any way. Indeed, in the Province of Cheshire, Royal Arch membership is an explicit expectation for promotion.
 
Warrior1256

Warrior1256

Site Benefactor
Glen Cook said:
Joining YR will not impact your Lodge membership in any way. Indeed, in the Province of Cheshire, Royal Arch membership is an explicit expectation for promotion.
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Thank you for the information brother. I am very much looking forward to joining the York Rite.
 
Glen Cook

Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
dfreybur said:
With orders under a couple of decades old they are common. Consider that Texas forbids membership in the most popular motorcycle riding and charity fundraising order but allows the second most popular one.

For older orders it's pretty much the sole domain of the Imperial Shrine to butt heads with GL level in state after state.

One of my lodges has a long line of members who ended up Potentate from an era where the lodge was extremely active well past the historical peak. In an era where a brother joining almost any lodge could step into the line just by showing up at every meeting, that particular lodge had a waiting list for chairs. Some got disgruntled and joined the line in the local Shrine instead. Given that history I figure the attitude ended up concentrated among brothers that went into the Imperial line in the Shrine after being Past Potentate at their local Shrine. They are the guys who could have ended up GM but who weren't installed into chairs so they got derailed early on.

The word ambition comes to mind but I figure it takes ambition to move on to the state grand line just as it does to move on to the shrine grand line. And so we have Imperial Potentates butting heads with Grand Masters. That this does not happen in other organizations I think has to do with their state organizations.
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I agree that there was a time that more Lodges required a waiting time to go into the line. However, the Imperial Potentates going in now were not of that era. Further, we have Imperial Potentates (Bill Bailey and Ralph Semb come to mind) who have been WM's of their Lodges. I cannot think of a Potentate in El Kalah's last 20 years who was not a WM. We may have one next year. In Utah we currently have a PGM who is also a PP and Emeritus Imperial Rep., and I can think of two others, one whose funeral is tomorrow (also PLtGCDR AASR, Past Grand Sovereign RCC, Past EGC KT. Amazing Mason). My Dad was a PM and Chaplain for Akdar Shrine in Tulsa and President of the Greeters, etc. etc.

So, my experience is not that Shrine folks ain't Blue Lodge folks.
 
ARizo1011

ARizo1011

Premium Member
Rifleman1776 said:
By my question, I am wondering just what makes an entity, or group, clandestine?
We have a sad situation in Arkansas where several years ago the GM declared the Shrine clandestine. Quite a few MMs have been expelled just for being members of the Shrine. Many others demited out and joined lodges in other states before being expelled. Can a GM declare anything he wants as clandestine? e.g. can he declare the Saturday mens bowling league clandestine just because he wants to? Or the Methodist church? And does such declaration die when his term expires or continue forever? It is a sad situation here. We have some lodges in Arkansas that will allow an MM who is also a Shriner to sit in lodge but others will not allow a Shriner in the door. It is hurting everyone. Did I say sad? Yes, it is. I cannot even enter the lodge I was raised in and where many of my friends are members. :RpS_confused:
Edit: I should mention, I am a Shriner, demited out of my Arkansas lodge and now belong to a lodge in Missouri where I, and others, are welcomed as Brothers should be.
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I believe clandestine really depends on what grand lodge you report. Because in FL shrine is till regular. As in the blue lodge that's up to you. You can go regular or irregular which i think Is just a term saying my grand lodge of FL of F&AM doesn't recognizes that lodge.
 
Glen Cook

Glen Cook

G A Cook
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trysquare said:
I agree. Study the Three Degrees first.
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There is some sense in this. I went through Royal Ark Mariner as a candidate after 15 years in the Craft and having served as Grand Lecturer for my mother jurisdiction. I quite enjoyed and got more out of the Noachite legend because I could compare it to what I already knew. Royal Arch and Royal and Select/Cryptic will also hearken back to the legends of the Blue Lodge. If you know those Blue Lodge legends, these new degrees will be placed in context for you. You can say "oh, yeah, I remember that."
Unless you're old like me, and you go, "uh, ummm." <G>
 
Warrior1256

Warrior1256

Site Benefactor
Glen Cook said:
There is some sense in this. I went through Royal Ark Mariner as a candidate after 15 years in the Craft and having served as Grand Lecturer for my mother jurisdiction. I quite enjoyed and got more out of the Noachite legend because I could compare it to what I already knew. Royal Arch and Royal and Select/Cryptic will also hearken back to the legends of the Blue Lodge. If you know those Blue Lodge legends, these new degrees will be placed in context for you. You can say "oh, yeah, I remember that."
Unless you're old like me, and you go, "uh, ummm." <G>
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I agree with you and my lodge brothers. I'm going to wait. Also most of my lodge brothers suggest that I go through the steps one at a time instead of taking one day classes. Any comments?
 
Glen Cook

Glen Cook

G A Cook
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Warrior1256 said:
I agree with you and my lodge brothers. I going to wait. Also most of my lodge brothers suggest that I go through the steps one at a time instead of taking one day classes. Any comments?
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IF your jurisdiction offers it separately, I would do each body separately, i.e., Chapter, Council and Commandery. I went through in two days, and it was a mish mash, but you may be able to keep it sorted in your mind. In England, as you may know, each of these is a distinct, stand alone body (including Mark). It really does make it easier to learn, and you can then study and incorporate those degrees before jumping into another.

I'm afraid that we (and I include me) are sometimes "Degree Grabbers" (I just made that up. Insert your own term). We Grab a Degree 'cause we want to say we got the Degree and claim we know its lessons (I recollect a national appendant body officer putting in his resume the fantastic number of degrees he had conferred upon him).

I will concede that even after serving as WM twice in a jurisdiction which has demanding proficiency for the Master, I didn't fully understand the Blue Lodge degrees. That came when I was Grand Lecturer and actually had to know them inside and out. I went through the AASR degrees. It was by participating in and directing them that I came to know them. I'm about to confer the Senate of Sovereign Degree for RCC. Even though I've had it conferred upon me, I don't really know it--but I'm about to! Whether I actually put any of those lessons into action as I should, well, that's another matter.
 
dfreybur

dfreybur

Premium Member
Warrior1256 said:
I agree with you and my lodge brothers. I'm going to wait. Also most of my lodge brothers suggest that I go through the steps one at a time instead of taking one day classes. Any comments?
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In Scottish Rite it's standard to go through a small set of mandatory degrees then to travel the state seeing the rest of the degrees in random order to have all of the lines on your SR "passport" signed. It works great in the SR so I figure it will likely work well in the YR if that strategy is offered.

As to when to start - I remember one brother who wished he'd taken an appendent body sooner. He'd been active at blue lodge 2+ decades first. I remember a ton of brothers who wished they'd waited longer between their blue lodge degrees and their first appendent body. I went through the line and each time I joined another appendent body. More than 5 years per worked for me. Should I convince my wife to go through the line again it would be natural for me to start my YR journey as I near the end of the chairs again.
 
Glen Cook

Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
In Utah we perform 19-29 of the degrees at our semi-annual reunions. Fire hose.

I don't get to go through officer lines anymore. I sit on committees, and as the trustee, or treasurer or secretary. Sigh <G>.
 
B

Brother JC

Moderating Staff
Staff Member
Scottish Rite in NM does all the degrees over a long weekend. I am unsure how many are performed and how many a read. By the end of the weekend everyone's a 32nd. York Rite generally spreads them out a little more, with Chapter one weekend, Council another (though sometimes both in one long weekend), and Commandery on yet another.
 
ARizo1011

ARizo1011

Premium Member
trysquare said:
Scottish Rite in NM does all the degrees over a long weekend. I am unsure how many are performed and how many a read. By the end of the weekend everyone's a 32nd. York Rite generally spreads them out a little more, with Chapter one weekend, Council another (though sometimes both in one long weekend), and Commandery on yet another.
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I've been told it is like this in FL as well.
 
Warrior1256

Warrior1256

Site Benefactor
Glen Cook said:
IF your jurisdiction offers it separately, I would do each body separately, i.e., Chapter, Council and Commandery. I went through in two days, and it was a mish mash, but you may be able to keep it sorted in your mind. In England, as you may know, each of these is a distinct, stand alone body (including Mark). It really does make it easier to learn, and you can then study and incorporate those degrees before jumping into another.

I'm afraid that we (and I include me) are sometimes "Degree Grabbers" (I just made that up. Insert your own term). We Grab a Degree 'cause we want to say we got the Degree and claim we know its lessons (I recollect a national appendant body officer putting in his resume the fantastic number of degrees he had conferred upon him).

I will concede that even after serving as WM twice in a jurisdiction which has demanding proficiency for the Master, I didn't fully understand the Blue Lodge degrees. That came when I was Grand Lecturer and actually had to know them inside and out. I went through the AASR degrees. It was by participating in and directing them that I came to know them. I'm about to confer the Senate of Sovereign Degree for RCC. Even though I've had it conferred upon me, I don't really know it--but I'm about to! Whether I actually put any of those lessons into action as I should, well, that's another matter.
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Thank you brother. Sounds like good advice which I will follow.
 
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