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Widows Son MC belt bbelt buckle

Brother JC

Moderating Staff
Staff Member
It is hard to gather as like minded riders as to discuss the WS petition because the edict is writen so that can't happen. Just like with the belt buckle it has unintended consequences in the way it was writen. If we follow the rule of law the edict will have to be resended before we can have and get to gethers to discuss this.
I disagree. A discussion to draw up a petition for recognition isn't the same as "identifying with" an organization. You're talking about a subject in the privacy of your own home, not wearing the t-shirt to the pancake breakfast.
 

dfreybur

Premium Member
... in time I'm sure tge edict will change when u have reasonable men meeting on the level eventually ignorance is defeated it might just take a little time ...

If the brethren wait on the leadership to make the change it will never happen. Once it has been ratified it became a part of the rules they work to uphold.

As Trysquare posts it will take a group outside of leadership to submit the paperwork to bring the topic back up again. As Texas is now the only problematic state there's a good chance recognition will pass this time around. I don't have a clue what the odds are but if you don't succeed at first, try try again.
 

admarcus1

Registered User
Texas is not the only state with an issue with the Widow's Sons. Here is a text of an edict handed down from the Grand Master in Massachusetts in December:

"By its own rules, the Widows Sons Masonic Riders Association permits no
Chapter to be formed in a Masonic jurisdiction without the consent of its
local Grand Lodge. The Widows Sons Massachusetts Grand Chapter
never requested or received the permission of the Grand Lodge of Masons
in Massachusetts to operate in this jurisdiction.
Therefore, it is my edict that no member of the Grand Lodge of Masons in
Massachusetts be a member of any Chapter of the Widows Sons Masonic
Riders Association. Failure to comply with this edict shall subject the
offending member to the disciplinary action of suspension or expulsion.
No one has been suspended as a result of this edict."

This is probably the sort of thing that could be rectified in the future, but it does seem like the issue was forseeable. You gotta follow your own rules (assuming the Grand Master is correct, of course).
 

dfreybur

Premium Member
Thanks for the response Bro admarcus1. It sounds like Mass expected a request but didn't see one so they acted. It's a variation on the theme. To me it reads like an invitation to request recognition but I'm not sure how much of that is my own bias reading that into it.
 

jvarnell

Premium Member
Texas is not the only state with an issue with the Widow's Sons. Here is a text of an edict handed down from the Grand Master in Massachusetts in December:

"By its own rules, the Widows Sons Masonic Riders Association permits no
Chapter to be formed in a Masonic jurisdiction without the consent of its
local Grand Lodge. The Widows Sons Massachusetts Grand Chapter
never requested or received the permission of the Grand Lodge of Masons
in Massachusetts to operate in this jurisdiction.
Therefore, it is my edict that no member of the Grand Lodge of Masons in
Massachusetts be a member of any Chapter of the Widows Sons Masonic
Riders Association. Failure to comply with this edict shall subject the
offending member to the disciplinary action of suspension or expulsion.
No one has been suspended as a result of this edict."

This is probably the sort of thing that could be rectified in the future, but it does seem like the issue was forseeable. You gotta follow your own rules (assuming the Grand Master is correct, of course).

Are these edicts helping the the good of the futernity or hurting it.
 

admarcus1

Registered User
I can't comment on the Texas instance because I am not familiar with it. In the Massachusetts instance, assuming that the situation is as described in the edict, then the action taken was justified. Whether it is good for the future of the fraternity or not depends on how you look at it. As I understand it, the rules of Massachusetts Freemasonry hold that any organization that requires membership in the Craft needs to have the approval of the Grand Lodge. Further, it appears that the Widow's Sons requires the same according to its own rules (if the edict is accurate). If it is important to a) respect the legitimate authority, and b) follow the rules one has set for oneself, then it is necessary for the future of the fraternity to enforce those rules. A Grand Lodge whose authority can be ignored is a Grand Lodge with no authority. An organization that does not follow its own rules is unpredictable and is going to be hard to trust.

I am hoping that there was at least some attempt to resolve the situation amicably before this edict was proclaimed. I find it heartening that no one was suspended as a result, and perhaps a resolution is in the works. If there is anyone out there who has more information about this that he could properly share, I would be interested in hearing it.
 

RyanC

Registered User
First I would like to say I'm just a EA, so if I over step that a EA should be seen and not heard, sorry. Now for the record I ride a Harley Davidson Road King, I'm also a Police Officer and for many years was a member of the Blue Knights MC (I left the club due to family, lack of time, and for the most part preferred to ride alone), so I understand how people see a biker and make judgements by the look of them. I do agree that many people who ride motorcycles are good hard working people, and some of those people would make good mason. But I also agree that forming a MC or RC might not be what the image for Freemasonry that most GL are looking for, that begin said I think motorcycles and riding can be used to promote Freemasonry, but it would be better to due it at a local level. Get a group of guys for your lodge or several lodges, have shirts made up, S&C and lodge and number, you guys can meet on a Saturday or Sunday and just ride. More people will talk to you that way, and in doing so you can promote the Fraternity and your Lodge, you would be also enjoying the fellowship of brother from your Lodge.
 

jvarnell

Premium Member
First I would like to say I'm just a EA, so if I over step that a EA should be seen and not heard, sorry. Now for the record I ride a Harley Davidson Road King, I'm also a Police Officer and for many years was a member of the Blue Knights MC (I left the club due to family, lack of time, and for the most part preferred to ride alone), so I understand how people see a biker and make judgements by the look of them. I do agree that many people who ride motorcycles are good hard working people, and some of those people would make good mason. But I also agree that forming a MC or RC might not be what the image for Freemasonry that most GL are looking for, that begin said I think motorcycles and riding can be used to promote Freemasonry, but it would be better to due it at a local level. Get a group of guys for your lodge or several lodges, have shirts made up, S&C and lodge and number, you guys can meet on a Saturday or Sunday and just ride. More people will talk to you that way, and in doing so you can promote the Fraternity and your Lodge, you would be also enjoying the fellowship of brother from your Lodge.
The problem is if a MC/RC have a MM requirments the GL of what ever state has to approve it. A lot of states GL have approved the WS and others like Texas have approved the Freemason RC (FMRC). The FMRC is not very active around me but I do have that Belt Buckle I can't ware. I understand everything you have said and it almost caused me a problem to say the same when I was a EA only. Here in Texas it might have been deferent if the GLoT had not seen the back Patch for the Florada's WS.

I was at a Railly at Blues, Bikes and BBQ and meet a bunch of WS and road with them but did not sit in lodge with them before I was told about the edict. I guess I could have sat in lodge with them if they did not ware there colors. I ride a 09 Street glide and if you are in Texas I will ride with you as a brother and not a MC/RC.
 

dfreybur

Premium Member
Are these edicts helping the the good of the futernity or hurting it.

That's not a question that is easy to answer. The answer tends to be a matter of individual opinion differing from brother to brother.

There is strength in diversity. There is strength in unity. Both true at the same time. Being different from state to state allows experimentation that results in strength like forming riding clubs in the first place. Being the same from state to state allows successful experiments to go into use across many jurisdictions. Where to stand in that spectrum is far from obvious until the vast majority of states authorize an organization. And then it becomes time to ask if too many appendent bodies are operating in the jurisdiction competing for the brethren's time.
 

Bro. Kenny Goodman

Registered User
Greetings Brethern... I am a 32 degree AFAM MM and a proud chaplain in the Widows Sons Motorcycle Riders Association. We are recognized world wide and have charters all over the world that are recognized by the Grand Lodges of Most States. We do not wear patches that would be offensive and the one in Florida in no way represents the others in the rest of the nation. I have attended many lodges in Texas that have welcomed me as a brother. I believe the Grand Lodge of Texas made this decision out of ignorance and should reconsider their edict based on facts not based on one state that has a patch that the rest of the charters disagree with. If any of the Texas Grand Lodge officers would care to educate themsleves on what the true spirit of the WSMRA is, please contact me at Branson4Christ@yahoo.com.
Fraternally,
Re. Kenny Goodman
 

Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
...The primary issue brought up during reconsideration was the "merry widow" patch shown to us. We did not feel that it presented a proper image of Masonry.
...
...

This was one of the reasons I gave in 2008 for prohibiting the organization in Utah. This representation of a woman was on the organization's main web page and still appears to be used in more than one state, as seen on the organization's website as of this date.

Additionally, the organization's public website had a MIFL section. Further, the proposed bylaws required rider vests be worn to Masonic funerals. This did not seem to be the appropriate dress for a Masonic funeral and an appendant body does not dictate the requirements for a Masonic funeral.

Subsequently, the Craftsmen formed a local group.

I would just note that to publicly admonish a sister jurisdiction to change their decision and that the decision was made in ignorance is not the better way to obtain change, even if the decision was poorly made.
 
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jvarnell

Premium Member
Greetings Brethern... I am a 32 degree AFAM MM and a proud chaplain in the Widows Sons Motorcycle Riders Association. We are recognized world wide and have charters all over the world that are recognized by the Grand Lodges of Most States. We do not wear patches that would be offensive and the one in Florida in no way represents the others in the rest of the nation. I have attended many lodges in Texas that have welcomed me as a brother. I believe the Grand Lodge of Texas made this decision out of ignorance and should reconsider their edict based on facts not based on one state that has a patch that the rest of the charters disagree with. If any of the Texas Grand Lodge officers would care to educate themsleves on what the true spirit of the WSMRA is, please contact me at Branson4Christ@yahoo.com.
Fraternally,
Re. Kenny Goodman

I was a FC learning the work when I went to Bikes Blue's and BBQ rally 2011 I think and met a bounch of widows son. I came back to the Dallas area and asked about this group on this web page. You can probly see the thread still but I think it was closed. I was threatened by a couple of brothers to stop the questining or they would stop me from being raised. I was also told if I was looking for a motorcycle group I sould join the shrine and become a motorcycle clown. I droped it was raised and that was that until I recived the beltbuckel from a freind and brother. I then started this thread. I was hoping others in Texas would say something positive. I am older than other MM my age and have been conterating on learning and working my way through the Line since. It maybe become my cause again when I have made it through the line. I have meet a couple of FMRC guys but that club doesn't give me the same feeling of brotherhod as the WS I meet in B, B and BBQ.
 

jvarnell

Premium Member
This was one of the reasons I gave in 2008 for prohibiting the organization in Utah. This representation of a woman was on the organization's main web page and still appears to be used in more than one state, as seen on the organization's website as of this date.

Additionally, the organization's public website had a MIFL section. Further, the proposed bylaws required rider vests be worn to Masonic funerals. This did not seem to be the appropriate dress for a Masonic funeral and an appendant body does not dictate the requirements for a Masonic funeral.

Subsequently, the Craftsmen formed a local group.

I would just note that to publicly admonish a sister jurisdiction to change their decision and that the decision was made in ignorance is not the better way to obtain change, even if the decision was poorly made.
So urging change good for the brotherhood is only to be said in back rooms and allies. It is always good to know what brothers object to so an org. can fix it instead of playing go fech a rock. To fix it we need the discription of the rock you and others want. If that image was gone would you. The wearing of motorcycle atire to funerals comes from the Patriot Guard so should it say "when approprate" on the web site or did I just bring you a rock that was not the right one.
 

Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
So urging change good for the brotherhood is only to be said in back rooms and allies. It is always good to know what brothers object to so an org. can fix it instead of playing go fech a rock. To fix it we need the discription of the rock you and others want. If that image was gone would you. The wearing of motorcycle atire to funerals comes from the Patriot Guard so should it say "when approprate" on the web site or did I just bring you a rock that was not the right one.

I have tried to foster change. Pictures disrespectful of women and vulgar web pages are not, in my mind, a change for good. I do not like those rocks.

I gave specific reasons when declining permission for the organization. It was clear why I didn't like those rocks.

I no longer have the role to approve organizations. We also now have another motorcycle organization. So, we found a similar rock.

We are not the Patriot Guard. We are Freemasons. I don't have a problem with either one of those rocks, but we use different rocks for different purposes.

I note that I am a member of the American Legion Riders. So, I like the motorcycle rock fine.
 

Bro. Kenny Goodman

Registered User
First of all Brother Cook, my deepest apologies if anyone was offended when I said "ignorant". That is only a bad word if people choose to remain ignorant. Ignorant merely means lacking knowledge on a certain subject, it does not mean stupid or dumb.

I have been to our web site and seen no such thing as far as the MILF accusation... also I have read our bylaws and do not read anywhere that we wear our vests at funerals. Here in Missouri we wear the proper attire to a Masonic funeral.

Are you sure you are reading from the World wide organization or something someone sent you that they made up??? If it is truly there, please show me where it is so that I can address these at our local and State meetings as I would agree with you whole-heartedly that these two actions do not constitute proper masonic ettiquette.

Thank you for educating and helping me.

Fraternally,

Rev. Kenny Goodman
 

Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
Oh, I wasn't offended. You were criticizing Texans. I'm an Okie. We view picking on Texans as a laudable past time (my oldest son is a Texan. We just try not to talk about it :))

After over 30 years at the bar and on the bench, I am fairly sure I have a grasp on the definitions of commonly used words. Certainly, there are some matters of which I am most ignorant (I recently heard a counterfeit rare metals case, of which I knew nothing). However, I do know that publicly criticizing, and using any form of the word ignorant, regarding another Grand Lodge is not the way to achieve change.

My note on the subject indicated the status of the website in 2008. Yes, it was the national website. You appear to agree that the (inappropriate) representation of a woman is still on the website.

I quite accept that your bylaws do not have a provision regarding funeral attire. The bylaws I reviewed did. My experience as a past presiding officer, chairman of jurisprudence, and a member of a bylaws committee of three different international Masonic bodies is that the national body is responsible for the bylaws of its constituent groups. If it is not, this demonstrates another weakness. Really, though, that was not the greater issue. Rather, it was the public vulgarity, lack of respect for women and inappropriate representation of the fraternity.

Shall I volunteer my recommendation of how to achieve change? I would take senior members of the craft and approach the new grand master and other decision makers informally (this means you have to be knowledgeable as to who helps makes decisions in the jurisdiction). I would not attack the prior decision. I would explain how we have changed and the prior rationale is not applicable to the facts today, such as removing the offending forum section. But of course, this can't be done yet, as the national organization still condones the use of the objectionable patch and publicly displays it's use on the website.
 

jvarnell

Premium Member
I have tried to foster change. Pictures disrespectful of women and vulgar web pages are not, in my mind, a change for good. I do not like those rocks.

I gave specific reasons when declining permission for the organization. It was clear why I didn't like those rocks.

I no longer have the role to approve organizations. We also now have another motorcycle organization. So, we found a similar rock.

We are not the Patriot Guard. We are Freemasons. I don't have a problem with either one of those rocks, but we use different rocks for different purposes.

I note that I am a member of the American Legion Riders. So, I like the motorcycle rock fine.
The thing I beleive is that the GLoT should have just isued the edict that the pole dancing imblem is not appropate and shall not be worn and that the GLoT does not reconize the widows son is not reconized. Then all the problem are averted without officaily reconizing the widows son.
 

MarkR

Premium Member
The thing I beleive is that the GLoT should have just isued the edict that the pole dancing imblem is not appropate and shall not be worn and that the GLoT does not reconize the widows son is not reconized. Then all the problem are averted without officaily reconizing the widows son.
Grand Lodges usually exercise control over membership in any organization if membership in that organization requires Masonic membership.
 
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