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Widows Sons

Companion Joe

Premium Member
For this discussion, the chronology of events and why they happened are not important. What is beyond dispute is what did happen: nine people were killed in a shoutout, and nearly 200 others were arrested; bikers were involved. The general populous doesn't know they difference between an OMC and a RC. If they see a group of guys wearing leather vests with patches on the back and billfolds on chains, everyone gets painted with the same brush.

To me, this is the image the Craft should have:
Freemasons+old+photo.jpg


Not this:

widows_sons_by_miss_mischiefx-d45ilnk.jpg
 

Companion Joe

Premium Member
Don't get me wrong. I'm not against Harleys and leather vests. It's Memorial Day weekend. Tomorrow my wife and I will jump on my Harley and take off. There is a real good chance we will wind up somewhere where folks are weathering leather vests (although I personally won't be). What I won't do is have a S&C on display.
 

HumbleTXMason

Premium Member
Bro. Joe

I think the chronology and what has been reported is important, because people are passing judgement based on what they see on the outside and not what's in the inside (i.e. the facts). Don't get too hung up on appearances... I don't have an issue with either of those pictures you posted...

I am not a biker, I don't even have a bike, and I don't dress like the second picture, but assuming those guys have been regularly initiated, those guys are my brothers.

Let's look at this from a different angle. I drive a truck and have the S&C on the tailgate... I get off-road a lot and with all the rain we're getting in SE Texas, my truck is always dirty/muddy... I can't keep it clean! Does this make the Craft look bad? Should I wash my truck every week? Should I sell my truck and get a BMW instead?
 

pointwithinacircle2

Rapscallion
Premium Member
people are passing judgement based on what they see on the outside and not what's in the inside
Yes, that is exactly what people do. From a scientific point of study it is called Social Psychology. People believe what they see, even if what they see is wrong. Interestingly, social psychology teaches us that people themselves actually act differently depending on how they are dressed. I do own a bike and a set of leathers. I can tell you that I feel differently when I am wearing leathers and riding my bike than when I am wearing a suit and driving my car. The point is that what is on the outside affects what is on the inside. As Above, So Below.
Let's look at this from a different angle. I drive a truck and have the S&C on the tailgate... I get off-road a lot and with all the rain we're getting in SE Texas, my truck is always dirty/muddy... I can't keep it clean! Does this make the Craft look bad? Should I wash my truck every week? Should I sell my truck and get a BMW instead?
Please tell me we are not comparing a deadly shootout in a public parking lot with 9 dead and 180 arrested to a dirty truck.:eek:
 

BroBook

Premium Member
For some reason the same people that are now pushing for a suit to be proper attire think that leather vests and patches are not becoming to a Mason and use a patch that is used less than one percent in the WS as an excuse to stop them from being approved. I have 8 suits 2 tuxes and don't ware them unless I really have to. It is not the external but the internal. I would rather ware my leather vest with my apron.
In Florida, we (PHA)
All wear black and white to all stated meetings, and when I was on the other side thru did also, since at least 1984.
 

HumbleTXMason

Premium Member
@pointwithinacircle2

I'm just comparing a biker wearing the S&C to my dirty truck...

So, are you saying that wearing a leather vest makes you feel like something you are not? hmmm... the clothes don't make the man. Yes, obviously when you're wearing your leathers you feel like you wanna ride... but that is who you are.
 

Companion Joe

Premium Member
Before people started freaking out about numbers and membership decline, flinging the doors wide open to anyone who was willing to join, this would never have been a topic of conversation. Those who believe the second photo is an appropriate representation of Masonry would have never gotten a petition or at least never made it past the investigation committee.
 

HumbleTXMason

Premium Member
@MarkR
I (personally) wouldn't project that image, as I said before, I am not a biker, do not own a bike, don't have leather vests, etc. I wear business casual at work, and that is how I dress for lodge. If the occasion dictates, I would wear a coat, suit, or Tux... that's me, others may do according to their means. I would have a problem with the second picture if they had a bottle of booze in their hands (drinking and riding?), and/or were grabbing the lady in a disrespectful manner,or doing something illegal. These guys have not crossed the line for me. Is that fair enough?

Bro. Joe,
With all due respect, welcome to the 21st Century. Don't know how things are in East Tennessee these days, but here in SE Texas people go to church wearing shorts and t-shirts (yeah, some of the more upbeat churches, and during the summer). And have you been to a high school recently? Well... things have changed a lot since the late 19th Century. Is it right or is it wrong? I don't know, but these are the times we live in.

So, to my knowledge, the requirements to be a mason are:
1. you are an adult male (18-21 depending on jurisdiction) or good character and recommended by other mason(s).
2. you believe in a Supreme Being
3. you petition on your own "free will an accord"

That is what brothers in an investigating committee need to investigate. I've missed the part where been a biker disqualifies you...
 

Companion Joe

Premium Member
I have been in a high school recently. I am a teacher and a coach, and I do a pretty good job of teaching our next generation that when you go to job interviews, church, weddings, funerals, etc. that dressing like you are going to the beach or out in the yard to work is not acceptable. Rather than throwing up our hands and saying, "Oh well, that's the times in which we live," maybe we should be saying, "Things have gotten out of hand, and as Masons we should be the ones leading the charge to turn things back in the right direction." Yes, things have changed, but they haven't all changed for the better. Just because societal norms have degraded, we don't have to live with it. If you haven't noticed, things are falling apart. Instead of riding the downward spiral, let Freemasonry be the shining example.

Our Grand Master said this year, "When you wear a ring or put stickers on your car, you are someone's opinion of Masonry." I take that to heart. I make sure my students' opinion of Masonry is that of a clean-cut, well-educated, respectful, contributing member of our community.

The only people I recall ever attending church while wearing shorts are the ones who go up front for the children's sermon. I only recall a couple of times seeing someone come to lodge dressed like they were going to the beach, and both times they were taken out by PMs and shown the error of their ways.
 

HumbleTXMason

Premium Member
Bro Joe,

First, I'm not just throwing my hands in the air and giving up... I try hard to lead by example. That's how I've been with my children and my nephews and nieces and their friends (the youth that I can influence). BTW, I agree with most of what you said in your last post... just disagree with your stance on the bikers wearing the S&C.

My stance continues to be that people shouldn't judge a book by it's cover... Yeah, I know that is human nature, but I disagree that you should change who you are just to keep appearances. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
 

LAMason

Premium Member
It has nothing to do with someone being a biker, it is the display of the S & C in conjunction with an image that evokes association with a life style, and the lifestyle that most people would associate with the second photo is one of an outlaw motorcycle gang. At the very least it gives the impression that those involved condone or even admire that lifestyle. “Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery” Charles Caleb Cotton. That is not to say that I do not believe that a group of Masons that want to ride together and wear the S & C should not do it, but they can do it without giving the impression that they are an outlaw motorcycle gang.

An example of the association of a symbol and the different impressions it can evoke is the iron cross. It is a symbol that is used in the Knights Templar, but it is also a symbol used by neo-nazi groups. If a group of Knights Templars shave their heads and dress like neo-nazis it will give the uninformed public a very different image of Knights Templar than what it really is.

“To preserve the reputation of the Fraternity unsullied must be your constant care.”
http://www.masonicworld.com/education/files/artnov01/The reputation of the Fraternity.htm
 

Companion Joe

Premium Member
I'm not against bikes (because I'm about to go get on mine) or even bikers. I'm not even against Masons riding together in organized groups. I ride with guys from my lodge. Sometimes we even ride to go visit other lodges. If they want to display Masonic emblems, I don't even have a real problem with that. What I would like to see, though, is that instead of trying to copy the OMC look, they go out of their way to not look like outlaws. That, in turn, could use Masonry as a tool to not give all motorcycle enthusiasts a bad rep.
 

pointwithinacircle2

Rapscallion
Premium Member
I disagree that you should change who you are just to keep appearances. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Yes, we shall have to agree to disagree. But please allow me to clarity the point on which we disagree. I am in agreement with what you said, "I disagree that you should change who you are just to keep appearances". The point on which we disagree is the degree to which the environment affects persons actual thoughts, beliefs, and actions. Commonly most of us think we are immune to these influences. However the science of Social Psychology tells us we are fooling ourselves. The Milgram Experiment, the Stanford Prison Experiment, and of course the famous http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strip_search_phone_call_scam all show that we are much more susceptible to outside influences than we think we are.

I believe that the lesson of the Plumb is two-fold. First, that by adherence to absolute uprightness of character we safeguard ourselves from those outside influences which might tend lead us astray. Second, that through upright behavior we safeguard ourselves against becoming a negative influence in the lives of others. How interesting then that the Plumb is associated with the JW, who is also associated with the Pillar of Wisdom.
 

Browncoat

Registered User
Before people started freaking out about numbers and membership decline, flinging the doors wide open to anyone who was willing to join, this would never have been a topic of conversation. Those who believe the second photo is an appropriate representation of Masonry would have never gotten a petition or at least never made it past the investigation committee.
Maybe you should stop and think that this may be one of the reasons that membership declined in the first place. You're placing far too much importance on appearances. This is a Catch-22 discussion. One of our founding beliefs is basically "it's what's inside that counts", that the clothes don't make the man, and all that jazz. Then there's the other saying, that the outer is a reflection of the inner, and there's certainly some value to that also. But I think you're taking it way too far.

This is the type of imagery they WANT to portray, that much is clear. The name "Widow's Sons" was chosen for its badassery (word of the day), and they specifically chose to look like outlaw bikers for a reason. With chapter names like Euclid's Problem, Rough Ashlars, and Hiram's Riders, they are definitely looking to live up to their bad boy image. This is NO DIFFERENT than any other appendant body. Personally, I think the guys in Commandery look like dorks with those goofy hats. No offense to my plumed Brethren.

Yep, there are some bad biker groups out there, no question. Some have taken it to the extreme. However, every real biker knows the history of how and why bike clubs were formed. They know it's all about brotherhood, which is a principal that should sound familiar.
 

pointwithinacircle2

Rapscallion
Premium Member
Isn't the mafia a brotherhood? My point here is that some people think it is about brotherhood and some people think it is about the kind of brotherhood.
 

Bill Lins

Moderating Staff
Staff Member
This is the type of imagery they WANT to portray, that much is clear. The name "Widow's Sons" was chosen for its badassery (word of the day), and they specifically chose to look like outlaw bikers for a reason. With chapter names like Euclid's Problem, Rough Ashlars, and Hiram's Riders, they are definitely looking to live up to their bad boy image.

Precisely what Masons should NOT do. Each of us represents the Craft at ALL times and should do so in such a manner as to engender respect, not fear or derision.
 

Browncoat

Registered User
Precisely what Masons should NOT do. Each of us represents the Craft at ALL times and should do so in such a manner as to engender respect, not fear or derision.
If you fear these men or have preconceived notions about their character based on their appearance, that says more about you than it does them.

Meet on the Level: To a Freemason, means just that — all Freemasons are Brothers who meet on the same level, regardless of their social or economic status outside the lodge. Princes, presidents, and captains of business are no better or more important than bus drivers, plumbers, and paper boys when they sit in the lodge together. Masonry does not detract from a man’s accomplishments, nor does it exalt him above his Brothers because of his position outside the lodge.

This is one of our most basic tenants, Freemason 101 stuff.

Again, the same could be argued the other way. Commandry is an excellent example because of its over-the-top regalia. I find it rather silly that men dressed as peacocks are representative of Freemasonry. The Shriners have weird hats and drive tiny cars in parades. How about those Knights Templar who dress up in full medieval garb? Or the Scottish Rite actors who go all out in full gear? This is a fraternity. It's a bunch of grown men who are playing dress up and role playing. Obviously it's much more than that, but the point remains.
 

MarkR

Premium Member
If you fear these men or have preconceived notions about their character based on their appearance, that says more about you than it does them.

Meet on the Level: To a Freemason, means just that — all Freemasons are Brothers who meet on the same level, regardless of their social or economic status outside the lodge. Princes, presidents, and captains of business are no better or more important than bus drivers, plumbers, and paper boys when they sit in the lodge together. Masonry does not detract from a man’s accomplishments, nor does it exalt him above his Brothers because of his position outside the lodge.

This is one of our most basic tenants, Freemason 101 stuff.

Again, the same could be argued the other way. Commandry is an excellent example because of its over-the-top regalia. I find it rather silly that men dressed as peacocks are representative of Freemasonry. The Shriners have weird hats and drive tiny cars in parades. How about those Knights Templar who dress up in full medieval garb? Or the Scottish Rite actors who go all out in full gear? This is a fraternity. It's a bunch of grown men who are playing dress up and role playing. Obviously it's much more than that, but the point remains.
You're missing the point. It's not about what I think about these men. I don't know them. They may well be good men. I do question their judgment in thinking that the picture above is something to associate with Freemasonry.

What I'm saying is that the GENERAL PUBLIC will view these men, who they don't know and most likely will never know, and the "weekend bad-ass" image will be taken as men who are genuinely threatening. Then they will see the Square and Compass and associate the threat with the craft. I just don't think it's an image that Freemasonry should be projecting to the public. Why can't they just ride together and enjoy their motorcycles without making it an official Masonic function?
 

Browncoat

Registered User
You're missing the point. It's not about what I think about these men. I don't know them. They may well be good men. I do question their judgment in thinking that the picture above is something to associate with Freemasonry.

What I'm saying is that the GENERAL PUBLIC will view these men, who they don't know and most likely will never know, and the "weekend bad-ass" image will be taken as men who are genuinely threatening. Then they will see the Square and Compass and associate the threat with the craft. I just don't think it's an image that Freemasonry should be projecting to the public. Why can't they just ride together and enjoy their motorcycles without making it an official Masonic function?
I'll keep going back to the other bodies, because the same thing applies: Why can't the guys in Commandery just meet without dressing up as parade marshals? If one of these guys runs into a Stop-n-Go to grab a soda on his way to a meeting, some soccer mom is going to wonder what the heck she just witnessed. Is the circus in town? Is that an image you want associated with Freemasonry...full grown men with big fluffy hats?

This isn't a general public problem. I don't buy that for a single minute. This is an internal problem.
 
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