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The Brain with David Eagleman

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
If you believe 'I' to be the ego then how can you believe in absolute freedom of will?
But I don't believe "I" to be the ego.
The ego is constructed by one's life which is largely out of the individual's control.
The Ego is the Mediator between the Id and the Super Ego. It chooses how to mediate between the two. It is how one controls the internal aspects of one's individual.
To commit to actions in order to compliment one's desires, to me, does not illustrate freedom of will.
If you commit to this belief, are you doing so because you have no choice in the matter?
Where did the desires come from?
The Id and the Super Ego.
simpson.gif

Did you choose those?
Yes, but it is your Ego that mediates how you choose to satiate those desires.
 

Derek Barclay

Registered User
But I don't believe "I" to be the ego.
Do you feel yourself to be identical to both your body and mind, or do you feel who/what you are to have a body - as a sort of vessel? I would argue the latter position to be an illusion.

If you commit to this belief, are you doing so because you have no choice in the matter?
I don't feel I necessarily commit to beliefs. Some appear and remain constant. Others appear and change. Still others come and go.

I choose them in so much as 'I' am the totality of this being called Derek. :rolleyes: My beliefs, it seems, are formed by how my brain interprets the events & environments of my life. This interpretation appears to be governed by my biology (genes and such) and circumstance.

The Id and the Super Ego.
I'll have to read more about it. Never truly understood the meaning.
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
Do you feel yourself to be identical to both your body and mind, or do you feel who/what you are to have a body - as a sort of vessel? I would argue the latter position to be an illusion.
I do not feel myself. I leave that up to my wife. She is much better at that sort of thing. ;-)

Self is "soul". It is composed of Emotion and Thought. They are the synergistic result of Spirit and Flesh coming together. Grok me?

I don't feel I necessarily commit to beliefs. Some appear and remain constant. Others appear and change. Still others come and go.
Evasion, and done so by choice. You are playing games again.
 

Derek Barclay

Registered User
I do not feel myself. I leave that up to my wife. She is much better at that sort of thing. ;-)
That one gave me a good chuckle :D

Que?

Evasion, and done so by choice. You are playing games again.
Haha, if I'm playing games than it is certainly not a choice. I'm not aware of any games being played. I think we have different ideas of what "beliefs" actually are. I know that I exist, but any thought outside of that is what I would call a belief. Some of these are convictions, meaning that I am optimally certain of their truth. Rather than choose to believe them, I am convinced of these convictions by evidence or my brain's interpretation of such. Here are some other words which don't necessarily convey anything of value.

When the answers are found in an operational sense, it is possible to operate directly upon the sources of desire.
You never fail to confuse me James. :p
 

Derek Barclay

Registered User
How does the one with the conviction learn from situations?
The conviction comes after. Or eh... maybe I don't understand the question.

Surely we must be able to think freely?
Define 'freely.' Thoughts appear in the mind. They are observed by the mind in which they appear and interpreted by, yet again, the mind.

The hidden mysteries of nature and science are not for broadcast.
The truth must be discovered, using the mind. I'd argue that no one has discovered the complete truth, but I'm willing to concede the possibility of that statement being false.
 

Derek Barclay

Registered User
Why does your mind think that your or any mind is best placed to discover what is true to what?
What other choice do we have?

What if the mind is unreliable or is programmed?
The mind is unreliable, which is why we use repeated experiments and concensus in order to determine something's validity. There is still the possibility of error, and I suppose the possibility of being mislead by something external, but we take the risk because, again, what else could we do?
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
That one gave me a good chuckle :D
:D
look it up.
Haha, if I'm playing games than it is certainly not a choice.
If you are not in control, then convince me that I am not talking with a hand-puppet.
I'm not aware of any games being played.
Okay, you're beginning to convince me now...
I think we have different ideas of what "beliefs" actually are.
Simply put, belief is what you hold dear. What do you hold dear and why?
I know that I exist, but any thought outside of that is what I would call a belief.
See previous comment...
Some of these are convictions, meaning that I am optimally certain of their truth.
But you are not according to you. You only say that you are but if you are truly a sock -puppet, something else is making you say all this and it is not your free-will.
Rather than choose to believe them, I am convinced of these convictions by evidence or my brain's interpretation of such.
Sounds like a cop-out excuse to be irresponsible, once again.
You never fail to confuse me James. :p
LOL!
 

dfreybur

Premium Member
Yup. Furthermore, you're beliefs enslave you. Embrace them wisely for they shall be your masters

This is one of the wonders of memorized proficiencies. Many men believe they can not memorize. Then they start the work on their proficiencies and they do the memorization. If they notice what just happened poof goes that belief.

Yet one more way that we make good men better. By removing self imposed limitations. The next time you come up against a limitation, remember what you thought about memorization before you started on your first degree proficiency. Then blow past that limitation.
 

Derek Barclay

Registered User
Good mornin' guys.

Whew! Okay here we go...

A statement is not likely to be absolutely true - in all universes and time paths. Thus the quality obscured by the word "truth" is being true to some reference.
'Truth' does not mean true for all time. I'm not convinced the universe is a static system. I think most people aren't. The world is ever changing, and we can draw from that that what was once true or what is true today may not be the case in the future. It is still a valuable term. I'm not talking about misindentifying truth either. It is useful to identify aspects of our world as they are now, to determine if they have been so for as long as we can observe, and then to predict that they will continue as such well into the distant future. There will always be the possibility that abrupt, dramatic changes do occur, but that gives me no pause. I'm stuck on this ride; I'm going to use my wits to the best of my ability in order to enjoy it as much as possible.

When a quality or state (e.g. trueness or knowingness) is treated as an object ("truth" or "knowledge') it appears to become an independent object or thing (Latin: reus). The idea that knowingness can be turned into a knowledge object (e.g. a book) and thus transferred is a logical error.

Thus a book on how to swim does not contain the knowingness of how to swim.
Holding a book won't make you able to swim. Reading it will. I'm confused on this one. Yall are obviously a little better with the words than yours truly. :)

I don't believe in absolute certainty; with one singular exception - we exist.

look it up.
I wasn't questioning 'grok' but the statement beforehand.

If you are not in control, then convince me that I am not talking with a hand-puppet.
Less of a puppet, more like a snowball rolling down a never-ending hill.

If something is caught in the light of my attention, then I will act on it, one way or another. This is as far as I can say that I 'choose' something. But the 'I' here is my complete being, not simply my ego, which is what I think most people consider when talking about themselves and the locus of their control. If I believed that my true self were non-physical, like a soul, and were riding behind my eyes, inside of a body rather than being that body, than I would believe in free will. But, from whence I sit it does not fit.

Simply put, belief is what you hold dear. What do you hold dear and why?
I used to affirm that these things I speak of about free will, the mind, and God were my deepest held convictions. Time and experience have begun to change that. I don't think I Believe anything anymore, and that may have a hand in why I struggle with depression and anxiety. I used to laugh when I'd hear people say that atheists believe just as theists do. I never understood it, until quite recently. Very few people, it seems, have truly observed and contemplated existence with a complete absence of assumptions. I actually have yet to meet or speak to one. I'm not so sure I want anyone to though because it can be quite unsettling. I very much want to find a way to unsee the 'seen', or at the very least find a way to live happily in spite of having seen it.

But you are not according to you. You only say that you are but if you are truly a sock -puppet, something else is making you say all this and it is not your free-will.
Correct. You call it God. I call it life.

Sounds like a cop-out excuse to be irresponsible, once again.
Everything that results from the actions of my being, my being will have to answer for them. It's just the answers may be "I don't know" or simply a perplexed shrug. I'm okay with that, because what other choice will I have. :)
 
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Derek Barclay

Registered User
That sounds like hokum to me, James.

Everything we experience, everything we know and believe takes place in the mind. I'm not saying that there aren't things which defy our concept of physicality, but nonetheless they are all physical. It's our understanding of that term that needs to change rather than labeling them or classifying them as something else. If a human creates something in a laboratory, that creation is as natural as the human itself, because the human is natural. Apple trees make apples. They are not identical objects but still share identity.

It sounds like you were walking along and had a thought about the nature of your being - a thought which could be incorrect. Until one does something of significance or value with thoughts such as those, they'll continue to be speculation in my mind.
 

Derek Barclay

Registered User
So your mind tells you that my statement is hokum. That is sure proof of something - but what?
Yes, my mind interprets your words as assertions without evidence to confirm their validity. But, no, my thinking this way does not prove that point.

Can you control your thoughts? If not, is your mind controlled by another intelligence?
No, I cannot control the thoughts that manifest within my mind. One can learn, however, to quiet the bombardment through meditation. My mind is controlled by my brain which is molded by the world and my experiences within it.
 
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dfreybur

Premium Member
... although the mind itself, being multi-layered and not under your control, is not reliable judge or communicator of what deeper beliefs are present.

The mind being multi-layered is a reality to be dealt with. What is the "you" that does not have control of the other parts? It doesn't make sense but there it is in reality.

Our minds, souls, memories, whatever, have layer after layer that are not in good communications with each other. We can view ourselves like a chamber orchestra. Learn to run the conductor and the rest of the parts fall in line. But which part of us, which layer, even is the conductor? The words like mind and soul and so on are too ill defined to work well.
 

pointwithinacircle2

Rapscallion
Premium Member
Learn to run the conductor and the rest of the parts fall in line. But which part of us, which layer, even is the conductor?
There is the $64,000 question. I wonder if it is one layer, or if a better visualization would be a vertical column running through all the layers; touching a small part of each layer. The task then would be to learn to move up and down the column receiving information from, and exerting influence on, each layer as you go.
 
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